f8 or saddle valentini puffer?

[CyberBob]

1st, let me say that I didn't expect to be flamed. But, I was giving my advice as a novice.
I didn't put PHD after my name. These are solely my experiences with puffers.
If people don't try new things, civilization will stagnate.
There are certainly tried and true methods for the maintenance of each speciaies of puffer.
But, a lil experimentation from time to time is called science ... As long as it doesn't endanger the fish.
I might fail, but then I have learned. If I succeed, perhaps I have found a cheaper or better way.
If I find something that works for me, I will share it with others.

Comments on the above post (from CyberBob):

- 10 DPs in a 30 gallon tank is too many. Also on that same tank, 50% partials every other week are too few on such a tank.. You cannot compensate for insufficient partials by increasing filter size/capacity. Filtration and water changes do different things,they are not alternatives, both are required independently of each other. Plus, DPs are FW fish, they do not ever need marine mix addition even at low levels.

I planned on 9, (1m > 8f), but one showed up out of nowhere. You will even notice that I recommended 8 DPs, not 10. 50% WC every 2 weeks has been just fine for me. I check my levels every week. I also have lots of live plants and do partial WC weekly for all my tanks. Which, I use seachem Stability everytime I do a partial and Prime everytime I do a 50%. I add the marine mix only when I see some courtship behaviors. Over the next month or so I let it rise to 1.001-1.002. It's completely removed by doing the 50% WCs after a month or so. When the water suddenly goes fresh again, they start courting like rabbits. Is it necessary? Probably not. Is it dangerous to them? Absolutely not. I am re-creating what happens in the wild.

GSPs in the wild are BW fish and move routinely from FW to BW and to SW and the reverse, but in captivity they live bet in full marine conditions in tanks with live rock for biological and chemical filtration, with a good protein skimmer added, and preferably with a 24/7 lighted macroalgae refugium. Over their expected ~15+ year lifespan, such tanks are far easiest and cheaper to operate than are conventionally filtered biofilter and mechanically filtered tanks with 50% weekly water partials, so such tanks are what we suggest for their captive housing and upkeep. Those Fish Only w/Live Rock (FOWLR) + skimmer + macroalgae are more expensive to equip and establish, but operating costs are significantly lower over the life of the fish, as water partials are significantly lower and thus much less costly. Those tanks also provide the best possible conditions for maximizing the captive lifespan of the GSP at the least cost.

I agree completely. I said nothing to the contrary. In fact, I stated if you decide to keep them in BW long-term, that it needs to be at least 1.020-1.025.

-To date we have no technique for determining the sex of F-8s other than necropsy. We have no idea what their sex is of live fish in captivity

I said it's best to have 1m>1f ... never said it was easy to sex them. It's not impossible to sex them by the way, just very difficult. Adult F8s give you your best chance of sexing them.

- To me, Black Neon Tetras neither look nor act anything like an Otocinclus catfish. Thais is absurd.

They don't look the same to me either. They have similar color & pattern. Perhaps the puff ignores the black neons for the same reason it ignores the otos. It's just a random thought, no science to back it up. They went after the blue neons almost right away, but have completely ignored the black neons.

-"Well planted tanks" are relatively simple in FW. They are tricky to difficult in light BW, and extremely difficult in SW, effectively impossible in mid-range BW. Puffers do best in visually complex spacious tanks - that is true. But they need not be "well-planted" with live materials. Visual complexity is all that is required. Don;t attempt to shoot yourself in the foot with live plant materials in BW or SW unless you are an advanced and experimental marine hobbyist.

Very true. Never said it have to be live plants. Just need to break their line of sight.

Not all plecos are wood eaters. Quite a few currently available are high-protein eaters, and rarely if ever touch algae. Most are extremely poor choices for puffer tanks, or any non-FW tank. Otocinclus catfish often are left alone by DPs and are thus often good worker fish in a heavily planted DP tank, but are completely unsuited for co-housing with most other puffers or in anything but FW.

Pleco as a genus are considered wood eaters. Some certainly don't eat much wood. But, put a piexe of driftwood in your tank and most likely you will find your pleco munching on it. Clown plecos specifically need wood.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..."

The best warning I know for novices it to be careful of all the advice offered, even by so-called experts or mentors, but especially so if it makes anything sound easy or simple. What you do not know always bites you.

Check the PufferPedia and the Library on this site for lots of articles and information on keeping puffers in captivity.

HTH

I completely agree. I'm pretty sure I said plan ahead and do your research ...

Some folks just want to flame others. Perhaps it makes them feel better about themselves in some way. I never claimed to be an expert. I was only offering my opinions and experiences. I thought that was what the forum was for.

[CyberBob]

My comment for CyberBob as well:
The question was - F8 saddle valentini puffer?
That was a lot of unnecessary information besides the inaccuracies.
For the OP:
Have you had a marine tank before? Because if you have, and if you're getting a 55 gallon, I change my suggestion to the valentini puffer.

If you look a few posts down ... the question was changed to "... what is a good first puffer, or should I say which is the best one for a person who has never kept puffers before. I am certainly no beginner,"

I only put all the info there as an easy way to compare a few key details in the specific breeds. But, I definetly got carried away and didn't realize I had typed so much.

[sevenyearnight]

Dwarf puffers are from a freshwater river in India, that leads to a freshwater lake. They are never in brackish water in the wild from what I have read.
Someone accidentally killed their dwarf puffers because they mistakenly thought they were brackish. Adding salt can hurt some freshwater fish.

[blackghostknife]

what I meant was out of those two choices lol. so I guess it was MY fault for not being totally clear. I want to go with the puff that is the most personable. Which out of those two would that be?

[CyberBob]

what I meant was out of those two choices lol. so I guess it was MY fault for not being totally clear. I want to go with the puff that is the most personable. Which out of those two would that be?

Ahhh ... well both of them are going to want salt.
Saltwater VS Brakish ...

Out of the 2, I'd vote for the Valenti probably. I love GSPs though.

[sevenyearnight]

I hear you, I thought he still meant between those two though

[blackghostknife]

okay but my question is still unanswered but just because marine is so expensive I will probably go brackish. but please answer the question. which is more personable, I will go with that one.

[Purifire]

I have never kept F8s, but my GSPs were a bit timid compared to most accounts.

[sevenyearnight]

Excluding SAP, and probably dwarves, I feel as though all puffers are personable. When kept in multiples, they tend to be less personable. But, each puffer is unique, so you won't know exactly how a puffer will act.
So, my opinion is that both puffers you named have the potential to be personable, but yes, marine is expensive to set up.

[CyberBob]

Excluding SAP, and probably dwarves, I feel as though all puffers are personable. When kept in multiples, they tend to be less personable. But, each puffer is unique, so you won't know exactly how a puffer will act.
So, my opinion is that both puffers you named have the potential to be personable, but yes, marine is expensive to set up.

I have a group of 10 DPs ... they are still very personable. Although I'm sure if there were only one or two, I might see a bit more personality. But, they seem to act a lot like the GSPs, only smaller. SAPs have a personality also though. But, they tend to be agressive. DPs are probably the least aggressive of the puffers I've seen. But there is always one in every group ... In my case it's the smallest that wants to be the bully. The others enjoy swimming with each other. The lil guy is always protecting the snails and will chase anything that comes close. But, when I come in the room 8 out of 10 come running to the glass asking for attention.
+1 to all puffers having personality.

But, as to which would be more personable of those 2 breeds. That is a tough one. But, I might lean a little more towards the Valenti. F8s have a lot of personality also, but tend to be a bit more shy. Once they get to know you, they do come out of their shell a bit more. I've met many F8s that act just like puppies. But, I've also met some that run if I come close. It really just depends on the fish. I know you are probably sick of hearing that, but it's very true. The gentlest and most personable puffer I ever owned was a GSP. He never lived up to his reputation.

[xrayjeeper83]

Black over time salt would end up being cheaper then brackish. If you set up a marine tank with enough LR and water movement you dont have to do water changes as much which will save you a ton on salt

[LilGreenPuffer]

Depends on the level of brackishness, though. F8s are low brackish. High brackish would be more expensive fairly quickly.

[El Scorpio]

The most cost-effective, personable brackish water puffer is the figure eight.

okay but my question is still unanswered but just because marine is so expensive I will probably go brackish. but please answer the question. which is more personable, I will go with that one.

[blackghostknife]

that's the kind of answer I was looking for. I will go with the f8. thanks for all of the help.

[RTR]

CyberBob wrote. in part:

"There are certainly tried and true methods for the maintenance of each speciaies of puffer.
But, a lil experimentation from time to time is called science ... As long as it doesn't endanger the fish."

Yes there are tried and true methods for keeping fish. And experimentation is good, proved that the experimenter has any concept of what questions to ask and how they can be experimentally resolved - which is rather a rare thing, and that failure is common on web forums. For starters. I would ask just how long you have been following your experiments on F-8s. My experiments ran for decades and involved hundreds of tank-years.

And he further wrote:

"When the water suddenly goes fresh again, they start courting like rabbits. Is it necessary? Probably not. Is it dangerous to them? Absolutely not."

How have you determined that it is "absolutely not" dangerous to them. that would be an interesting experiment to discuss...

And he further said:

"I am re-creating what happens in the wild"

Do you have references which confirm that statement - from peer-review sources, not from hobby forums? SFAIK, these are exclusively FW fish.. But if I am mistaken, I would love to see correct data on their wild condition. The early reports on keeping and breeding these fish came from folks living in the Malabar province, where they collect them from waters well inland, without connection to the sea at all. Those were only hobby field reports, but they did include captive breeding.

And on GSPs he said:

"In fact, I stated if you decide to keep them in BW long-term, that it needs to be at least 1.020-1.025."

That statement implies that you believe 1.020 - 1.025 to be considered BW. If that is the case, that is the source of confusion. Specific gravities in the range of 1.021 to 1,025 are generally considered full SW and never referred to as BW, which by definition is an admixture of FW and SW. 1.020 could be argued either way. Some folks argue for 1.018 -1.020 to be considered BW, while other hold they can be considered SW. That discussion tends to vary with the livestock to be maintained. That reduced density may or may not be the optimum for biofiltration techniques employed.

He further said, on F-8s:

"I said it's best to have 1m>1f ... never said it was easy to sex them. It's not impossible to sex them by the way, just very difficult. Adult F8s give you your best chance of sexing them."

Well, on this forum we would certainly appreciate your sharing this ground-breaking technique with the other members here, as we have no idea of how to determine the sex of most living puffers, definitely including F-8s.

When I said:

"To me, Black Neon Tetras neither look nor act anything like an Otocinclus catfish. Thais is absurd."

He replied:

"They don't look the same to me either. They have similar color & pattern. Perhaps the puff ignores the black neons for the same reason it ignores the otos. It's just a random thought, no science to back it up. They went after the blue neons almost right away, but have completely ignored the black neons."

If that is the case, it was a chance if valid observation that the Black Neons were ingored in your (single?) tank. That is a valid observation. Pipe-dream explanations of it are however falacious if not supported by evidence, which you do not show or reveal if such exists. It is not at all rare for particular tanks of DPs to allow the existence of other fish, but without multiple trials bu other hobbyists, it cannot and should not be offered as general rule and no such generalization should be offered without validation. Remember the value of experimentation and repetition of the experiments in other hands? Suggesting that others might want to test Black Neons as 'safe' with DPs is valid. Stating that are safe after a single trial is improper and certainly is not science.

When I said:

"Well planted tanks" are relatively simple in FW. They are tricky to difficult in light BW, and extremely difficult in SW, effectively impossible in mid-range BW. Puffers do best in visually complex spacious tanks - that is true. But they need not be "well-planted" with live materials. Visual complexity is all that is required. Don;t attempt to shoot yourself in the foot with live plant materials in BW or SW unless you are an advanced and experimental marine hobbyist."

H\e replied:

"Very true. Never said it have to be live plants. Just need to break their line of sight."

Then why did you say "well-planted"? There is a world of both environmental and biological difference between a well-planted tank and a visually complex one. The choice of well-planted" as a description of a tank without any live plants or macroalgae materials is guaranteed to confuse any audience. That is a highly misleading statement, not a very good teaching tool.

He said, concering catfish:

"Pleco as a genus...

"Pleco" is not a genus, has not been for decades at least, perhaps not in the lifetime of many members here. It is a common name in the hobby for the sucker-mouth catfish family, the Loricariidae. In fact, there are not many real wood-eaters in the family, but a lot of algae and associated microflora and microfauna raspers. In fact, there may well be as many carnivores as true wood-eaters in that large family group of fish.

He finally said:

"Some folks just want to flame others."

No, actually I hate it. But I hate even more seeing folks with little knowledge or understanding and perhaps little mastery of the language throw out incorrect and/or misleading information as if it were established fact. This hobby supports a huge mythology from such poor and misleading information being read and accepted and spread by repetition as if it were valid. It damages far more folks than just the original questioner. So I do spend a lot of time myth-busting, but more in trying to teach good and valid hobby practices.