dwarf puffer suddenly not eating

[jsub]

Hi all, we've had a dwarf pea puffer for about two years now. We decided to purchase a couple of small (baby) black mollies and ghost shrimp to help with cleaning. The day we introduced these guys to the puffer tank I also did a water and filter media change.

The next day, we noticed that the puffer was hovering in a vertical position near the surface of the tank, face up. She stayed like this for some time, breathing heavily without much movement. Later that evening she appeared back to normal. The next day the same type of floating near the surface occurred again. We changed water and it appeared to work, however, that evening, she was floating near the top again but not as long. This floating activity seems to have slowly reduced in duration and frequency for the past three days. However, since it began we have not seen the her eat, not even her favorite snails, or the standard bloodworms.

Has anyone experienced this situation? Some thoughts we've had were water problems, the filter media, internal parasites, stress from the mollies. We use RO water and the same filter media for the past two years. The only thing that was changed was the introduction of the new inhabitants and the filter media change (sponge, charcoal, silicate removal media).

Hope there's some ideas out there

[Myaj]

Well, the first and most obvious idea would be since you added more fish AND changed out the filter media, you removed a bunch of your bacteria and now it can't handle the additional waste load.. leading to ammonia poisoning at worse or elevated nitrites at best.

Or the other idea is maybe the mollies are picking on the puffer, they can be brats.

So, first of all, we need some more info.

1. What size tank?
2. What fish (and how many) are in it?
3. Why are you using RO water?
4. Get your water tested and get the results. Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates especially, but since you are using RO water you might also have problems with pH crashes, etc so if you can get the GH KH and pH tested too that would be great. Get actual numbers, not just "fine" or "within acceptable range".

First thing you should be doing right now is several small water changes and/or get those extra fish back out of the tank. You need to get the water quality back up, and water changes will be the fastest way to do it.

If you don't know how the bacteria cycle works and why adding fish and taking out filter media hurt your tank so bad, you should definately read up on it.

[Nick]

I want to emphasize even though it's been suggested, I'd get the mollies out of the tank, they chase any fish they see relentlessly when bored, they could easily stress a DP to death. They are also waste machines that do not help clean a tank at all, for that try some amano shrimp, they really eat algae well and eat up worms craps from the puffer fast as anything. I tried one molly with my GSP and it was making him so crazy I took it out only a day later, and that is a fish that could have chewed the molly into little pieces. They are also waste machines that do not help clean a tank at all, just dirty it faster, for good cleanup try some amano shrimp, they really eat algae well and eat up worms craps from the puffer fast as anything. I also second everything Myaj said.

[Nick]

I also moved this to the hospital

[jsub]

Thank you Myaj,

1. Tank is 6 gallons.
2. One pea puffer, 2 striata botias, and the 2 new 1/2" mollies, and 3 ghosts shrimp.
3. RO being used to remove silicates and set a stable controlled water source.
4. Performed extensive water test during and after initial setup for baselining. Will perform water tests for present situation.

I was aware that I should not replace all filter media at the same time, to sustain the good bacteria, but since I started the tank, it's what I've done without noticeable trouble to occupants. I didn't realize that the baby mollies could increase waste levels above the acceptable. But it is only a six gallon. I have had ghost shrimps before and were just replacing the ones that have been eaten.

As you suggested, I am planning daily water changes about 20% of the tank to see if this helps. The mollies don't seem to stay anywhere near the puffer but I will take them out to see if that helps too.

Could water problems affect the puffers appetite? From the circumstances, probably. The water probably caused the puffer to want to float near the top which could have affected his appetite as well since this all happened at the same time.

Much thanks for the suggestions.

[Nick]

A puffer with ammonia poisoning will usually be near the top to get air, and usually is too stressed to eat. Also, I think you may need to rethink the entire tank, one of those loaches alone is too big for it, and they are shoaling fish that like to be in groups of 3 or more. I believe they also prefer a fine sand substrate for burrowing.

[Myaj]

Puffers are extremely sensitve to bad water. If all that happens is he stops eating for a few days, you are lucky. When they stop eating and stop swimming around, that's the first signs that something is very wrong.

Mollies are fish that get way too big and produce way too much waste for a 6 gallon tank, and, in my personal opinion, so are zebra loaches. A six gallon tank is tiny and other than the shrimp, I wouldn't try to keep anything in there with a dwarf puffer. I lean towards understocking at all times, with all fish, but with puffers, its not a preference, its a necessity. I would say your tank was overstocked before you added the mollies and shrimp.

Definately get the mollies out asap and do the water changes.

I still don't understand the use of RO water, what makes you think silicates are bad? RO water is mainly used for fish that come from extremely soft water environments, and even then, you MUST use a product such as RO Right to replenish the stuff the fish need.. RO water by itself, with no additives, is not good for fish at all. I don't know the chemistry of it off the top of my head, but you need to at least mix it with regular water if nothing else for it to be safe.

Anyways, I have rock hard water and my dwarf puffers never minded it. Mollies are brackish fish that adore hard water, and would not do well in RO at all. I've never concerned myself with silicates, I'm curious as to why you are? Have you had problems in the past or is it just something the guy at the fish store told you?

Also, as Nick said, there really aren't fish to "clean" your tank for you. Remember, everything they eat, they have to excrete, so all they do is produce waste and add to the bioload on the tank. Water changes are your best friend.

[jsub]

You guys are great, I feel like going home right now to do that water change and take those mollies out. I'll also get an ammonia tester.

I have actually been in process of purchasing a larger tank, possibly a 65 gallon, cycle, and transfer the guys to the new tank. This would enable us to provide a school for the botias, and different types of substrate of their liking. But, everything really evolves around the puffer, so planning is taking some time.

[Nick]

The six gallon will be great for the puffer and some Amano shrimp, which are much cuter and more entertaining than ghost shrimp anyway I'm getting a 65 gallon myself in July, I hope yours turns out well, you will have room to really stock some good fish in that much space.

[jsub]

Myaj,

I have a problem with brown algae covering the plants and surfaces. I've read that silicates are the food source so I've used a HIS RO system for the past 1-1/2 years and add RO Right to reconstitute it. But, what really seems to work is taking the planted drift wood out and any other plants and cycle them into our snail aquarium. They devour that brown algae without eating the plants and it comes out extremely clean.

I read somewhere that mollies like to eat that brown algae, so I thought it could help. But as you said, what goes in must come out.

[Nick]

Amanos will eat hair algae much more efficiently than mollies, their tiny claws can scrape a surface polished. They also use them to pull the little tail bit of snail meat out of a snail shell a DP "slurps" rather than crushes. The brown algae does need silicates as a food source(if it's the type i'm thinking of), but seeing as your tank walls(if it's glass) and substrate certainly contain lots of silicates, a better solution might be floating plants that will intercept the light the algae also need. How much lighting do you have over the tank?

[jsub]

Nick, to go along with what you've said about the plants, I do notice that the areas where there is shade from the tank lighting there is not as much algae. I used to have a 8 watt fluorescent, but it did not appear to give enough light for the plants, I outfitted the hood with an 13 watt compact fluorescent.

The tank is acrylic which is what I'm trying to purchase for the 65 gal. I went through some trial and error trying to determine how long to leave the light on without producing algae and still provide enough light for the fish and plants. I've got it on for only 6 hours, 4-10pm, but there is very minimal indirect lighting throughout the day which gets through the closed blinds in the living room.

I think I have that brown algae under control, but I'll keep the floating plants in mind. But wouldn't that reduce the amount of light to the other plants and fish below?

[Nick]

Try doing 10 hours of light a day with a two hour break in the middle, plants change mode from dark to light much easier than algae. Yes, floating plants do reduce the amount of light, but they are good way to find a "just right" amount - you let them spread until the algae starts dying, but the plants are ok, then keep them at that stocking level.

[Myaj]

Jsub, try taking out your driftwood for a while.

Usually diatoms will go away in a newly set up tank within a month or two, but I've found there are some types of driftwood that just seem to make them linger forever.

I have over 10 tanks running and the only one with any diatoms is one with a sinking type of driftwood.. that tank always looks brown and nasty and if I hadn't paid so much for the wood, I'd yank it out of there. This tank is using the exact same substrate and water as all my other tanks, has live plants, has sufficent lighting.. the only difference is the type of driftwood.

[jsub]

Our puffer has recovered nicely over the last few days. The water changes probably was the solution. I'll have to coordinate the filter media changes more appropriately as to preserve the bacteria. She's energetic and eating again. Thank you very, very much for your advice and kindness.