itchy figure eight

[subby]

Hi to everyone<

This is my first post on here and boy am I glad I found you!! It is so hard to get accurate information at the LFS. My 20 gallon tank houses a figure eight (Bumble) and my spotted green (subby), and a pea puffer, named bittsy.
Bumble was scratching her face and body, along with darting around - then subby started itching as well. I treated my tank for 14 days with maracide - and for a few days they were ok, but now Bumble is itchy again. My paramaters are as follows:
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Alkline - 180
Hardness - 300
Ph - 8.0
Ammonia - High - used amino lock to detoxify - I have been doing that for quite a while.
Salinity - 1.008
I did a 30% water change three days ago (i've been changing the water and adding salt with the meds for the ich - about 10% change every other day). My temp is at 78.4, which I just took down yesterday from 81.2 to advance the ick.
Everyone, including Bumble is breathing fine, as well as eating like, well, a puffer I'm testing my water twice a day.... I'm lost!
One thing I had noticed is when I purchased bumble at the LFS, she seemed to have cotton like patches by her gills on both sides as well as the top of her little head. I didn't notice it until I got home, and due to the fact that I tend to worry anyways, I thought maybe it was a true fungus infection, but maybe not - I'll just watch it. The cotton patches went away, her color went to normal and, well, i figured it was taken care of by the remanider of the Copper Safe that I had left in my tank .
Do you think it could still be ick? She is breathing great, eating like a pig, not hiding, playing with me and her tank mates, along with Subby and the others not showing any signs of sickness what so ever. Please let me know what you think -- I'd sure appreciate it!:)
Thanks
Candy Short

[Jayhawk]

Hi Candy! I'm glad you found us, too. I'm wondering how you cycled your tank. The reason I'm asking is the high ammonia is a sign of an uncycled tank and ammonia poisoning could be the cause of your fishes symptoms. Also, the ammo block is only delaying any forward progress towards cycling and puffers are very susceptible to ammonia poisoning.

How big are your puffs? Also, is that pea puff a dwarf puffer? If so, dwarfs are purely FW. Your salinity is perfect for your figure 8, but could be low for your GSP which eventually when near full grown prefers high SG near or at seawater levels....and GSPs need about 30 gallons each.

So...I hope I have overwhelmed you with information! Read the articles in the library section because there is a real good article on GSPs and another good one of figure 8s.

[Pamela]

Are you sure there's no nitrAtes in that tank?
If the tank is cycled, then there should be, so retest, although I believe the tank is uncycled.
Can you find another tank for the dwarf puffer? He is freashwater - if pea puffers and dwarfs are the same.
It's good that they're eating, but you're setting yourself up for a whole host of problems.
Immediately, however, bring the temp up a few degrees - slowly - one degree a day, as this speeds up the ich life cycle.
Reduce feeding by half - either every other day, or half the usual amount once a day, as this will cut down on the bioload in the tank, which, as we believe the tank to be uncycled, could become a huge problem.
Like Jayhawk said..read up, taking your time, as it's a lot to digest at once, and then feel free to ask away.
I would, however, up the water changes to 50% a day. Are you using proper marine salt or aquarium salt?
Discontinue the meds, as heat and salt will take care of the ich - the parasite's free-swimming stage can't survive in salt.
Ok, now you're bombarded! Like I said, have a good read in our stickies and get back to us. Good luck.
Pami.

[RTR]

If the specific gravity is 1.008, it is not FW Ich.

[Pamela]

Oh, I got the impression the fish were very new, and the ich was from the lfs, and cos she'd turned the temp down the life cycle was slowed.
Can she REDUCE the SG to kill the bugs?
Pami.

[subby]

Thanks for getting back to me so soon.

I've had my F8 for four months now. My tank was set up seven months ago, which I went round and round trying to get all of my paramaters right, so I'm 100% sure I have no nitrites and that the tank is cycled correctly. I use the dip stick tests from jungle - and I've also double checked with the freshwater tests by aquarium pharm. I have a five gallon tank of freshwater where I am attempting to grow snails - which also has very good water conditions. I could move my dwarf to that tank - however I have had her since the start, and she seems to prefer the brackish water. I have been using CYCLE while I was giving the meds to make sure the aquarium stayed in its paramaters. I use marine salt, the same as they use for the marine tanks,, not aquarium salt. My green spot is about 31/2 inches and my figure eight is around two inches. Subby, my gsp, showes signs of extreem stress when I have tried to raise the salinity in the past. I thought maybe I had identified him wrong, but I didn't (i'll try to get a picture of him up on the site)
I love all of the info, so thanks so much! My poor husband is tired of hearing my fish delimias all of the time - so he's glad I found you all too!:)
Do you think decreasing my salinity would kill the bugs like pamela asked? Do you think it is a bug?
Lookin forward to your replys,
Candy Short

[subby]

I forgot to ask, I have a protien skimmer/filter in my puffer tank. It can be used for tanks up to 55 gallons. It puts out alot of bubbles - it has also helped taking out the yucky stuff. Do you think, although this sounds crazy, that my Bumble (F8) doesn't like the extra oxygen that is produced in the tank? Just a thought.
Thanks
Candy Short

[perek]

I would RAISE the temp to 86f if it were ICH, but I'm not sure of what to say in this case because the salinity is high.

[Pamela]

Candy...have you seen any ich spots, or just the cottony stuff?
Pami.

[subby]

Dear Pam,

At this point, I don't see anything on my figue 8 or my spotted green. Their skin looks great - infact subby (spotted green) has better coloring now than he has had in a while. When I was looking at them this morning, I noticed my spotted green breathing alittle heavier than usual. Again though, no one has any spots or white tuffts. I went to turn on the protien skimmer - and that's when I noticed subby breathing alittle heavier. I checked my paramaters again this morning and everything is wonderful except ammnoia. at this point, the temp is at 78.5 degrees, and everyone ate really well this morning. I do have two placeos(ithink thats how it is spelled) cats to help with cleanup. They are hiding today, but again show no physical symptoms except rubbing on the plants and gravel. They are breathing alittle heavy as well.
Yikes, hugh.

[Pamela]

What's the ammonia reading at?
Pami.

[Jayhawk]

OK, so you've got two plecos in there, a GSP, a Figure 8, and a dwarf puffer. Your tank has been established for quite some time, yet you have high ammonia readings. Be aware that your current readings could be off because ammolock types of products often mess up testing.

I really think like I said earlier you're having problems due to ammonia poisoning. I think the cause is excess bioload by the number and size of your fish as well as the fact that puffers are messy eaters.

The plecos are FW only fish and shouldn't be in BW, and they're high bioload fish. They could go in another tank with your dwarf puffer. The figure 8, and even 2 figure 8s, would be fine in your 20 gallon tank.

The GSP really needs a larger tank by itself.

Your ammonia should be at 0 if you're not overfeeding and if your tank isn't overstocked...unless your tap water is reading high ammonia levels right from the tap. Still, even if the ammonia is from the tap, the fish are overstocked for a 20 gallon tank and at least 3 of the fish belong in FW.

I'd stop all meds, use charcoal to remove them, change about 25% of your water every day for the next 4 days and remove some fish to get the bioload down. The tank will likely go through a mini-cycle, but with lower stocking and limited feedings things should get better.

Eric

[subby]

Dear Pami,

The ammonia reading is at 6.0 mg/L on the Jungle brand dip stick tests. It says danger under the reading number on the container. I have used both Amaquel plus made by Kordon as well as Ammino Lock from Aquarium Pharm to try to get the ammonia under control. For about a month my nitrites and nitrates were off the chart - more than 200 for nitrate (mg/L) and way over 10.0 (mg/L) on nitrites. Through persistant water changes and usage of chemicals, I finally got the readings in ideal range. Both of my Puffs have had itchy skin through all of this and along with using AmQuel to get the nitrite, nitrate, and ammnoia removed, I was using maracide for the ick (without doing water changes) and Maracyn Plus antibiotics so a bacterial infection couldn't get through (I have gotten all of my suggestions for meds and such from "Puffernet.com". I just checked my spotted green and he seems to have alittle labored breathing- not too bad, but not normal for him.

[subby]

Pami,

I really want to thank you for helping me. My puffs are my little children -my daughter is 16- so they have become my babies. I'm disabled due to a severe back injury, so my tank is litterally right next to my side of the bed where I can take care of them and interact with them. (my husband helps with the heavy water changes) I know everyone has their love for their puffs - it's amazing how their little faces light up when they see me enter the room, as I'm sure you have seen that in your puffs as well. I swear they recognize us and are glad that we are there with them. Anyways, didn't meen to ramble, I just wanted you to know that I greatly appreciate your time and knowledge.

[perek]

Dear Pami,

The ammonia reading is at 6.0 mg/L on the Jungle brand dip stick tests. It says danger under the reading number on the container. I have used both Amaquel plus made by Kordon as well as Ammino Lock from Aquarium Pharm to try to get the ammonia under control. For about a month my nitrites and nitrates were off the chart - more than 200 for nitrate (mg/L) and way over 10.0 (mg/L) on nitrites. Through persistant water changes and usage of chemicals, I finally got the readings in ideal range. Both of my Puffs have had itchy skin through all of this and along with using AmQuel to get the nitrite, nitrate, and ammnoia removed, I was using maracide for the ick (without doing water changes) and Maracyn Plus antibiotics so a bacterial infection couldn't get through (I have gotten all of my suggestions for meds and such from "Puffernet.com". I just checked my spotted green and he seems to have alittle labored breathing- not too bad, but not normal for him.

Wow those readings are off the charts, did u cycle for the little guys before adding them

Ammonia is arguably the worst out of all of those. Ammonia for fish is like breathing in fire for them, its really painful. If this is a established tank then something is seriously wrong with the filtration. Nitrites should always be 0 ir very close to zero as well as it can cause suffication (i think??).