Laboured Breathing in Puffer

[transcendz]

Hi - I've kept puffers of different varieties for about 6 years. I currently am battling an unknown problem with my oldest puffer. I've posted on Wet
WebMedia but was advised to post here. Hopefully someone can help.

This is a long one, so please bear with me

I've had this particular green spotted puffer for about 3.5 years. I've written before about him in terms of acclimatizing him to full marine about 3 years ago, I checked with Bob Fenner prior to doing so and judging by his size when I got him he old enough to move him from Brackish to full Marine. I did so with Bob's advise very successfully. He's been thriving in my 46 gallon marine system ever since. The setup is 3 years old. Sorry for the length of the email but I wanted to provide some background.

I noticed late last week that he was not himself. He's usually extremely sociable and full of energy. He was very quiet and I noticed that his breathing had become labored. He's about 5 inches long and at least 4-5 years old.

Water parameters are normal (see parameter & tank specifics below) and everyone else in the tank is normal (goby, maroon clown). I decided to give him a fresh water dip and buffered the ph and temperature in the fresh water accordingly (I also consulted the Conscientious Marine Aquarist for reference) and at that point decided to quarantine him in my hospital tank (well maintained and seeded with water from the main system, no substrate, power head, filter (polywool/charcoal), heater, no chemically reactive items). He doesn't seem to be getting any better. His breathing is still very labored.

I'm not sure what to do, he's an amazing fish and I'm terrified of losing him. Wondering if anyone might be able to offer some advise. He's been pretty lethargic, hasn't eaten in about 3 days (that I can tell) and he's hanging around near the top of the tank (which I know can be from lack of oxygen in the water)...but I've got a power head running for airflow and the temperature is normal so I'm not sure what to do. Any ideas?
It doesn't seem to be parasitic from what I can tell based on my experience. (I've battled gill flukes with a puffer in the past). He's not flicking, or having any other tell-tale signs that I'm familiar with.

I had asked on Wet Web Media if I should lower the salinity in the hospital tank (which is 15 gallons). I've begun the process of doing so today and will go a point per day until I reach 1.020


Further development...

After reading the response to my question on Wet Web Media I came home from work for lunch to check in on him and noticed that he's got some redness under one of his eyes within the eye ball. It seems a bit swollen. So I took dissolved some epsom salts into a container of water from the quarantine tank and added it in once dissolved (1tbsp per 5 gallons - so three tbsps).

Any thoughts on what this could be? Is it related to the trouble breathing? or do you think he's bumped something...?

Other questions/advice...

Should we continue to ride it out in quarantine? He's been in there 3 days. I'll keep him there until he shows some improvement for at least more than a week.

Should I medicate?

Should I continue to do freshwater dips?

Could this just be old age?

Any thoughts on getting him to eat (I alternate their food every 2 days -meaning they get fed every two days) between the following:
homemade which contains (fish vitamins, baby clam, shrimp, nori and a bit of gelatin to hold it together), Krill, Nori and finely chopped raw shrimp now and then)

There haven't been any changes to the home system since I moved 6 months ago. No new fish, I did add some new live rock when i moved months ago but there've been no ill effects. (it was cured from the store and then kept in a bucket with a powerhead for 2 weeks to ensure there was no spikes when added to my home system)

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm at a loss here

Main tank
46 gallons, hang on remora skimmer, 2 powerheads, 1 heater, eheim canister filter, circulation pump, aragonite substrate, approx. 45 pounds of live fiji rock, lighting is on a timer
maintenence schedule: water changes weekly, media change within filter every 2 weeks (checked every week), clean aquascaping monthly
feeding schedule: every 2 days, alternates as per above)
PH - 8.2
Salinity - 1.025
Temp -approximately 78 degrees
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm
Phosphates - 0
Calcium 425mg



Hospital Tank
15 gallons, power head, heater, no substrate, high powered hang on filter with charcoal and polywool, lighting is also on timer
maintenence schedule - same as above
PH - 8.2
Salinity - 1.024
Temp - 79 degrees
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites & Nitrates - 0ppm
Phosphates - 0
I haven't tested for calcium

[Pufferpunk]

Glad you found your way over here. How large/old is the puffer?

[transcendz]

He's about 5 inches long and at least 4-5 years old.

I got him from a LFS when he was about 4 inches long. He was in a brackish system for about 6 months with me at which point I consulted Bob Fenner about acclimatizing my system to full marine. I did so quite successfully. I've had him for about 3.5 years now, and at the time I got him we thought based on his size that he was at least over 1. He's grown in the past 3 years but only about an inch or so. He's about 5 inches and a little bit now.

[Pufferpunk]

Sorry I'm a "long post skimmer". Check out this & see what you can fill in: http://www.thepufferforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=5

[transcendz]

thanks. I took a look at this prior to posting. I think I've covered everything there. Nothing has changed within the tank in the past week. Nothing has been added that isn't added normally, nothing has changed, not even food. We're still on the same batches of everything (I make fish food every few months), no difference in water parameters, no tank additions, all parameters have been stable. As I mentioned everyone else in the tank is fine. I'm just concerned he's getting weaker and weaker that even though he may pull through whatever this is i'd like to try to either get him to eat or add vitamins or some type of supplement to the water.

Any advice anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

[transcendz]

Sorry I don't have a digital camera right now, but I do have photoshop. Go figure.

I've photoshopped what has happened with my puffer's eye.

Has anyone seen anything like this before? Is epsom enough to treat this?

Does anyone think this is symptomatic of his breathing troubles?

[Pufferpunk]

I do remember a few years ago, someone here having that bloody eye problem. I hope they read this & post soon.

[Bred]

my immediate response is: double check water parameters in that QT tank.... old tank water is not enough to seed the biofilter of a new tank. furthermore, whatever water quality issues may have been present in the main tank are now present in the QT tank. a 50% water change on the QT might be a good idea.

just my opinion, but hope that helps

[transcendz]

I've double checked the water parameters and everything is still the same as above. Last night he was hanging around a little too close to the top of the QT tank for my liking. I was concerned about him taking in air. Woke up this morning and my boyfriend checked on him and he was doing fine at the bottom of the tank. Between him leaving for work and me getting to the QT tank(maybe 10 minutes) I noticed he was floating at the top of the waterline on his back. HE'D PUFFED!. I guess he ingested some air and here we were. I quickly looked up what to do on wet web media as I've been lucky enough to never have one of my puffers actually puff. I got him within a net (so as to not damage his skin with my hands) and followed their instructions to rub his tummy upwards and hold him so that his nose was pointing up. This seems to have worked and he's now resting on the bottom of the QT Tank. I'm sure he's quite stressed out from all of the commotion and being ill. So i've taken the day off (thank goodness for understanding employers) to take care of him. I'm still not sure how to proceed. I'm still lowering the salinity to 1.020. What a scary morning.

Any advice?

[Pamela]

Can you see anything in his gills?
Have you had a nitrIte or ammonia spike any time in the past few months?
Pami.

[transcendz]

I've contacted a local marine biologist friend of mine who does consulting on the side hopefully he can stop in tonight.

We've had no major ammonia or nitrate spikes that I'm aware of. The water chemistry is tested every week, and there's been nothing out of the ordinary.

I've taken a look at both gills and though his breathing is quickened there doesn't seem to be anything that I can see amiss within the gills. Everything appears fine on the outside ( with the exception of the eye as mentioned yesterday)


At this point i'm still lowering the salinity and watching him like a hawk. He's at least resting now. I'm becoming more concerned about his eating, than anything now because it's been 4-5 days since i've seen him eat anything. I've tried all of his favorite foods. He still is making eye contact and tries to swim to the glass when I approach the QT.

[transcendz]

My poor little guy (Sake was his name, the japanese rice wine, so named because of his jovial personality)passed away this afternoon, I noticed his breathing had become more laboured and I was on watch for any sign of pain. I was on standby with the clove oil on advice from my m.b. friend. Not to let it drag out. As I was sitting with him I just started talking to him and thanked him for being such an amazing pet for so many years and that I was sorry nothing I was doing was seeming to help him. He just stopped breathing.. I picked him up in the net and held him in my hand and that was it. I'm in the process of determining whether I want to put myself and him through an autopsy which my m.b. friend as offered to do. I'm leaning against it. Has anyone ever gone this route. For now I'm just going to take a few moments to spend a little more time with him.

Thanks to everyone for their help and support. Knowing you guys are out there makes me feel a little less puffer-less.

Thanks.

[Jayhawk]

What a bummer, but it's great that you were there and able to hang out with the little fellow at the end. Just like us, there are so many things that can go wrong besides the standard ich, flukes, etc.

Hang in there,

Eric

[Pamela]

How sad. Sorry to hear that...seems to be a bit of a mystery.
A compromise is to let your friend take Sake away, freeze him, and if you feel up to an autopsy, then he can do it, but don't jump to any decision just yet.
Pami.

[Pufferpunk]

So sorry for the loss of your friend. Sometimes there is just nothing we can do for them. I'm glad you found us!

I did an autopsy on a puffer that died after only 6 weeks & found it had liver disease. Be warned--their skin is extremely tough!