Hello,
I have a porcupine puffer that is about 5". Last night I installed a sump on his tank so I could get rid of the nitrate sponge HOB filters I was using. He seemed a little upset with everything and was hiding for the rest of the night.
It's a 75gal tank (I know, too small long term, I'm already setting up a 150) with a 50gal sump (30 gallons of water in it). So there's approximately 100 gallons of water volume. I'm running a mag7 as the return pump.
Well after installing the sump, the water is still slightly cloudy this morning. I'm guessing it's because of the added water flow, but I'm sure it will settle down. This morning I woke up and the puffer was swimming around, although he's still not his usual self. My concern is that his eyes are slightly cloudy. Is this just stress induced? Is there something I need to do?
Water Params:
Nitite = 0
Ammonia = 0
Nitrate ~ 10ppm
pH = 8.4
SG = 1.025
Porcupine Help *added pics* help!
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
-
mikeosoft
- Figure 8 Puffer
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:35 pm
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Porcupine Help *added pics* help!
Last edited by mikeosoft on Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Puffer Queen
- Mentor
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- Location: Louisville, KY
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mikeosoft
- Figure 8 Puffer
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:35 pm
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
To answer your questions:
Both eyes are affected. They're not as bad as I've seen on puffers at random LFS's, but they're definitely cloudy.
Both fish came from the same tank system at my LFS so I did not quarantine. They have been in my tank for about 5 months with absolutely no problems. I do 30gal water at least weekly and I check the water quality daily.
I'm feeding him frozen krill, snails that I breed, and earth worms from my LFS. I've been trying to get him to eat silver sides and squid, but I have not had any success yet.
I'll try to get some pics when I get home later tonight.
As for his breathing. I guess it's not really labored, it's just that he's swimming around and breathing with his mouth open. Normally he keeps his mouth closed.
Both eyes are affected. They're not as bad as I've seen on puffers at random LFS's, but they're definitely cloudy.
Both fish came from the same tank system at my LFS so I did not quarantine. They have been in my tank for about 5 months with absolutely no problems. I do 30gal water at least weekly and I check the water quality daily.
I'm feeding him frozen krill, snails that I breed, and earth worms from my LFS. I've been trying to get him to eat silver sides and squid, but I have not had any success yet.
I'll try to get some pics when I get home later tonight.
As for his breathing. I guess it's not really labored, it's just that he's swimming around and breathing with his mouth open. Normally he keeps his mouth closed.
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Puffer Queen
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- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:35 am
- Location: Louisville, KY
- Contact:
The problem with not quarantining is that regardless if both fish were in the same system - they can introduce pathogens into the tank.
LFS systems have a constant influx of new fish added to them - thus constant "supply" of pathogens. There is cross contamination by reusing nets, placing hands into tanks without washing, annoying kids placing their hands in the tanks, adding transport water to the system - even a drop of water can introduce pathogens......
If both eyes are affected - probably bacterial infection secondary to potential parasites or exacerbated by stress. The fact remains there could be pathogens in the tank that became infective when the fish was stressed.
I would recommend removing the fish to a separate tank and treat with an antibiotic. Nitrofurazone, kanamycin or Maracyn-2 are my top three choices. Oral administration is preferred over adding it to the tank. If this is not possible - then one hour baths is my next choice. Adding antibiotics to the treatment tank is not ideal as many antibiotics lose their potency when exposed to light, air and prolonged exposure to the tank water. Also most antibiotics do affect the biological filtration.
I would watch closely as this puffer could also be suffering from a parasitic infection as well - examine closely for spots or velvety sheen.
LFS systems have a constant influx of new fish added to them - thus constant "supply" of pathogens. There is cross contamination by reusing nets, placing hands into tanks without washing, annoying kids placing their hands in the tanks, adding transport water to the system - even a drop of water can introduce pathogens......
If both eyes are affected - probably bacterial infection secondary to potential parasites or exacerbated by stress. The fact remains there could be pathogens in the tank that became infective when the fish was stressed.
I would recommend removing the fish to a separate tank and treat with an antibiotic. Nitrofurazone, kanamycin or Maracyn-2 are my top three choices. Oral administration is preferred over adding it to the tank. If this is not possible - then one hour baths is my next choice. Adding antibiotics to the treatment tank is not ideal as many antibiotics lose their potency when exposed to light, air and prolonged exposure to the tank water. Also most antibiotics do affect the biological filtration.
I would watch closely as this puffer could also be suffering from a parasitic infection as well - examine closely for spots or velvety sheen.
Kelly
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mikeosoft
- Figure 8 Puffer
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:35 pm
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Thank you for the advice Kelly, I will pick up one of the antibiotics you mentioned on my way home and begin treatment tonight.
I have one question. If I am able to administer his treatment orally, do I still need to put him in a QT tank? I have a 30gal that I can use for QT, but I'm sure the water quality will be more stable in his main tank.
Obviously if any signs of velvet or ich show up, he'll go immidately into QT.
As for treating any bacteria/pathogens that may be in the main tank. Is there anything I need to do for this?
Thanks,
Mike
I have one question. If I am able to administer his treatment orally, do I still need to put him in a QT tank? I have a 30gal that I can use for QT, but I'm sure the water quality will be more stable in his main tank.
Obviously if any signs of velvet or ich show up, he'll go immidately into QT.
As for treating any bacteria/pathogens that may be in the main tank. Is there anything I need to do for this?
Thanks,
Mike
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mikeosoft
- Figure 8 Puffer
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:35 pm
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
I just got home and his eyes look worse. He's swimming around now with his mouth open, without using his side fins.
Here's a picture.
He's not willing to eat so I'm going to do the 1hr dips. I purchased Maracyn-2 and Maracyn. What type of dosage should I use with the dips? If he begins to eat, what type of dosage should I feed him?
Thanks,
Mike
Here's a picture.
He's not willing to eat so I'm going to do the 1hr dips. I purchased Maracyn-2 and Maracyn. What type of dosage should I use with the dips? If he begins to eat, what type of dosage should I feed him?
Thanks,
Mike
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Puffer Queen
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- Location: Louisville, KY
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This is a very sick puffer.
I would suspect parasites as well as bacterial infection.
Mouth open breathing usually is a sign of impaired gill function - usually due to parasites. The first signs of marine velvet (amlyoodinum ocellatum) is impaired respirations. When the velvety sheen appears it is often too late.
I would be inclined if this was my puffer to do a freshwater bath (well aerated) for at least 15 minutes. I would treat with Cupramine in a separate tank (follow directions on bottle). Copper is the ONLY treatment for velvet. It will also kill marine ich if the puffer has this parasite in the gills. The problem with waiting is if it is velvet, the puffer could die within the next day from it. Make sure the tank is bare bottom, no copper, no UV , protein skimmer or ozone. Make sure there is adequate water agitation/aeration as well as biological filtration. This puffer has impaired oxygenation due to probable parasites, increased metabolism due to stress from pathogens and depleted oxygen.
Swings in water parameters will stress the puffer and may affect the puffer's ability to fight off the pathogens.
Keep the lights off.
I would do an hour bath with Maracyn-2. One tablet per 1 gallon is what I use.
I would recommend adding beta glucan and vitamins to the tank as well to help boost the immune system.
I would suspect parasites as well as bacterial infection.
Mouth open breathing usually is a sign of impaired gill function - usually due to parasites. The first signs of marine velvet (amlyoodinum ocellatum) is impaired respirations. When the velvety sheen appears it is often too late.
I would be inclined if this was my puffer to do a freshwater bath (well aerated) for at least 15 minutes. I would treat with Cupramine in a separate tank (follow directions on bottle). Copper is the ONLY treatment for velvet. It will also kill marine ich if the puffer has this parasite in the gills. The problem with waiting is if it is velvet, the puffer could die within the next day from it. Make sure the tank is bare bottom, no copper, no UV , protein skimmer or ozone. Make sure there is adequate water agitation/aeration as well as biological filtration. This puffer has impaired oxygenation due to probable parasites, increased metabolism due to stress from pathogens and depleted oxygen.
Swings in water parameters will stress the puffer and may affect the puffer's ability to fight off the pathogens.
Keep the lights off.
I would do an hour bath with Maracyn-2. One tablet per 1 gallon is what I use.
I would recommend adding beta glucan and vitamins to the tank as well to help boost the immune system.
Kelly
-
Puffer Queen
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- Posts: 386
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:35 am
- Location: Louisville, KY
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Coppersafe is not a good choice for copper as it is chelated which means the copper is bound and not readily available.
I would dose the tank as waiting is not an option.
Tomorrow I would do a serious search for the Seachem cupramine as it is fully ionic and able to be used at lower concentrations to achieve its effects.
Do the dips & bath and then place in the tank with copper.
I would dose the tank as waiting is not an option.
Tomorrow I would do a serious search for the Seachem cupramine as it is fully ionic and able to be used at lower concentrations to achieve its effects.
Do the dips & bath and then place in the tank with copper.
Kelly
-
Puffer Queen
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- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:35 am
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excessive mucous could be a stress reaction, reaction to parasites or brooklynella.
If the excessive mucous production was before the dip, examine the skin closely - any discoloration- pale areas?
Is the puffer covered in something that looks like mucous or a velvety covering?
How long did you do the freshwater dip for ? Did you well aerate the dip?
If the excessive mucous production was before the dip, examine the skin closely - any discoloration- pale areas?
Is the puffer covered in something that looks like mucous or a velvety covering?
How long did you do the freshwater dip for ? Did you well aerate the dip?
Kelly
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mikeosoft
- Figure 8 Puffer
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:35 pm
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
I did not see any discoloration before the dip, although I did notice a stringy bubbly thing hanging off him.
He does not have visible signs of ich or velvet (I've seen both on other fish).
The FW dip lasted exactly 15 minutes and it was very well aerated.
He is in the 29gal copper tank right now with the clown fish. I treated the clown similarly, only for much shorter durations. I've added an AC110 with media from the sump for filtration and an air pump with a long air stone.
I'm really hoping he makes a full recovery. My puffer was the only reason I got back into salt water.
What comes next? Obviously the main tank needs to rid itself of whatever went wrong in it. How long do I need to wait before readding anything to the system?
He does not have visible signs of ich or velvet (I've seen both on other fish).
The FW dip lasted exactly 15 minutes and it was very well aerated.
He is in the 29gal copper tank right now with the clown fish. I treated the clown similarly, only for much shorter durations. I've added an AC110 with media from the sump for filtration and an air pump with a long air stone.
I'm really hoping he makes a full recovery. My puffer was the only reason I got back into salt water.
What comes next? Obviously the main tank needs to rid itself of whatever went wrong in it. How long do I need to wait before readding anything to the system?
