Flutter...Still not recovering

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Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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The Fisherman
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Flutter...Still not recovering

Post by The Fisherman »

As some of you know, Flutter was getting white "pustules" a few months ago. Then it progressed to breathing rapidly and through his mouth. Then he started coughing up food. Eventually, Chewal suggested the problem was a Tape worm, which I treated with metronidazole. Flutter then passed a very large tape worm, and I moved him to QT to treat with Amoxicilin incase of internal infection. He apeared to be recovering.

Now, he has lost so much weight he almost doesnt look like the same puffer. He doesnt come to the glass anymore, or follow people around. He wasnt eating for a long time, and Chewal said it was from having a sore throat/stomach from the tapeworm dislodging. Eventually, I have gotten him to eat black worms and krill (enhanced with vitachem) for a few days, but then I missed 1 day of feeding, and now he just swims up to the food, puts it in his mouth like he wants it, and then spits it back out. I know he wants the food, but he just cant seem to eat it for some reason. He still breathes rapidly and through his mouth too. I count one breath per second, according to gill movement.

Is it possible he still has aa secondary infection? He still has the white pustules too.

I'll post tank params later but i'm sure they are perfect, or close to it...

I don't wanna lose my Flutter :cry: Maye he is just old...I don't knwo how old he was when I got him, since he was already full grown.

the only other crazy wild idea I have had is that he is X. naritus and needs BW to live any longer. he does have some yellow coloration on his belly....just a wild guess though. im sure its wrong.

any help and/or comments are apreciated
-John
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Post by Pufferpunk »

Poor fella, he's been thru a lot. Have you tried garlic?
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

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Post by The Fisherman »

Pufferpunk wrote:Poor fella, he's been thru a lot. Have you tried garlic?
I have not tried garlic yet. Mostly because its never worked for me in the past.

He does want to eat, just seems like he can't for some reason... He swims up and grabs it right away, but doesnt swallow it. The little bits he does eat, he chews on for a while.
-John
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Post by Jason »

I"m having a similar problem with a puffer right now, tries so hard to eat but gets a little down then its gone the next day.

tonight (for the fifth night) i've sat staring trying to see how long his teeth are...so far they seem the same as before. he is trying and its so bloody frustrating to watch :(.

I hope yours gets better i'm not so sure on mine :(.

Jason
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Post by Phaedrus »

It is heartbreaking when they want to eat, but can't. :(
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Post by Boxermom »

That's why I ended up euthanizing my tiniest DP, Cobra. After a couple of weeks, he got extremely skinny. He'd poke his head at the food and would try to eat but couldn't get them into his mouth, it appeared as though his mouth wouldn't open or close. I believe he suffered from lockjaw.
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Post by Puffer Queen »

I have had better luck with vitamin B12 than garlic - here is a thread:
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic36500-10-1.aspx
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Post by The Fisherman »

Thanks Puffer Queen, i'll check that out.

I guess the only positive side is that Flutter is big enough that I can force feed him, if it comes to that...

I've tried force feeding a Dwarf Puffer before, and they are just too small.

The only thing that worrys me, is that he might still have an internal infection. Chewal told me to treat with Neomycin after the Amoxicilin, just to make sure the infection was gone, but the only Neomycin my LFS had was a "Geltek" kind that the fish are suppost to eat. Supossedly it also doesnt afect the biological filter, and it doesnt dissolve in the water. I never got to treat him with it because he wasn't eating enough...

I'll see how he is eating today. Anyone have any exp with the Geltek? I'd like to treat him with that if I can...

Well i'm off to see if we have any Vitamin B12. My moms bound to have that somewhere, with all the herbs and vitamin stuff that she gets...
-John
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Post by The Fisherman »

Just wondering, PufferQueen, do you know which month of AFM has your article on the Vitamin B12 in it?

I have most of the 2006 issues, and I looked through a bunch of em but couldnt find it.

I also have no clue on how much Flutter weighs. He is around 3 1/2 to 4" long. I'm guessing an overdose would not be good...Any recomendation on how much to give him?
-John
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Post by Puffer Queen »

It was in an article by Scott Michael...I'll have to find it.

Vitamin B is water soluble so you can't overdose like the fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E & K).
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Post by Puffer Queen »

You might try minocycline (Maracyn-2) or kanamycin (like neomycin this is an aminoglycoside) both of these can be absorbed through the skin so while it is not a great way to administer antibiotics, it is better than not at all. Make sure to treat in a bare bottom tank without porous decorations.
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Post by The Fisherman »

Ah ok, I may move Flutter back to QT and treat with Minocycline or Kanamycin.

Lucky me, my Maracyn-2 expired 2 months ago... Anyone know if its still safe to use? I'm somehow assuming it means no, being expired and all lol.

I'm going to the LFS today anyway.

We don't have any Vitamin B12...I'll have to find some at a health store nearby.

Ok, call me dumb but...Vitamin B12 can't treat the fish just by putting it in the water, correct? I assume i'll have to force feed, if I can't get it in liquid form I will have to crush it and mix it with some clam meat or something?
Any advice on force feeding? I've used a syringe before, but that was with a smaller puffer (it also didnt work, the puff was too small). I don't have any anesthetic, so i'm guessing i'll have to put on a pair of rubber gloves and catch the puffer, and squirt the food down his throat? Hes not gonna like that...

I apologize for all the questions, I don't get sick fish very often anymore, so I don't have very much exp in fish diseases and treatments.

Flutter ain't going down without a heck of a fight! :rockon: :metal:
-John
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Post by Puffer Queen »

You can crush and dissolve the b12 in water and add to the tank. I have used it this way as well as force feeding.....may be less stressful on the puffer and you.

If the expired is all you have - I'd use it but not knowing if the medication had been exposed to long periods of heat (before you bought it), I would not use it especially if the LFS carries it and is open.
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Post by The Fisherman »

Ok, i'll try crushing it and putting it in the water. Any idea how many miligrams should be put in a 29g tank, for a 3 1/2- 4 inch fish?

I'll pick up some Maracyn-2 as well.
-John
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Post by The Fisherman »

Well...

Me, being the lucky person that I am, just realized that I have no heater for my QT tank anymore.

My 200 watt titanium heater for my SW tank died a few days ago...It had a liftetime guarantee and was supposedly never gonna break. Yeah right. I've only had it for like 8 months.

So i'm using my back up 50 watt on my SW tank right now...its actually heating the tank very nicely. I still need to get a repacement 200 watt. Which I don't have the cash for ATM.

So basically I can't treat with Maracyn-2 because I don't have a heater for my QT tank. Unless I want to treat my main tank....

I'll have to stick with the B12 until I can get a heater. I'd get one from my LFS but they have pretty high prices....and I am not rich right now. I'll see what I can do though.
-John
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