What am I doing wrong?

[andy]

After my last post "guilt ridden, first death" I went back to the same LFS on Saturday and bought another F8. Unfortunately this little fella also passed away on Monday. I was really devastated as I thought that given all the positive feedback you had given me, plus the fact that the puffers had had a further week to acclimatise at the LFS they might pull through. I carried out everything that I had previously mentioned in my last post, except that I carried out a 90% water change rather than a 50% water change before introducing the F8. I also left the light off all day on Saturday, but switched it on on Sunday.

I have been pondering what could have gone wrong and although there is still the possibility that the batch of F8s in the LFS were of poor quality I am less convinced and am really worried that I am missing something fundamental that is causing my F8s to die, especially given the fact that both died within the same time period once introduced into my tank.

Both F8's appeared to be more lethargic on the second day and showed signs of what I can only describe as a "cough" or a "sneeze" every now and then. They would also appear more cumbersome and bump into things. I have read other threads that suggest that this could be attributed to Ammonia in the water. If this is the case I am confused because I am convinced that my tank is cycled! I also recall reading that additives to remove chloramine can affect Ammonia measurements with certain test kits. I have checked and can confirm that my test kit is salicylate based so as far as I can recall is not affected.

Water parameters before adding the F8 were Ammonia and Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 10ppm and pH 8. I also took measurements after the death and the readings were exactly the same.

I have had the following thoughts and would be most grateful for any further help/suggestions.

1) I have a new tank setup and I am aware of "new tank syndrome", hence the reason why I carried out a fishless cycle by adding Ammonia solution as detailed in my first post. Whilst I have been waiting to obtain a F8 I have fed the tank by adding 15 drops of Ammonia solution on a daily basis. I have also taken water samples and measured Ammonia and Nitrite each time before adding the Ammonia solution. Each time the measurements have both been 0ppm. I have therefore concluded that my tank has cycled. Is this correct?

2) I use tap water which I condition to remove chlorine and chloramine using "Nutrafin Aqua Plus" water conditioner. I added this to the water 24hrs before carrying out the water change. Is this sufficient time to remove chlorine and /or chloramine?

3) I have read on the side of the bottle that "Nutrafin Aqua Plus" contains pure herbal extract that "reduces stress attributed to transportation, handling and acclimatisation", "coats scales and fins to protect against scrapes and cuts". Could this herbal extract have caused their death?

4) How do you know whether or not your tap water is safe to use for puffers. Are their other chemicals that might be present that I am not measuring that can be harmful?

5) I fed both puffers on Saturday evening with frozen bloodworms which I had defrosted in luke warm boiled tap water. Could the way that I prepared this have caused their death?

6) Could I have bought a bad batch of frozen bloodworm from the LFS that could have caused their deaths, i.e. could it have been defrosted and re-frozen?

7) I have a well planted tank with Java moss and Java fern, is it possible to have too many plants that in some way could have contributed to their deaths? The plants are currently thriving with many new shoots.

Finally, I am finding it difficult to find a LFS that stock puffers and therefore need to keep my options open. My tank size is 16US Gallons, could I consider keeping a single Amazon Puffer? Bearing in mind that I am a novice would this be a better choice in any case?

My apologies for this essay but I am very confused and concerned. Any advice would be gratefully received. Thank you in advance.

[Peregrine]

What were the tank parameters a couple days after fish were introduced?...did anything change?
Temp?

Fish were likely in FW at pet store, and you had them in FW when you introduced them right?

Has the tank ever held other fish..that were treated with a copper based medicine?

I don't know if it is accurate...but I thought twitchiness (coughing), could be a sign of osmotic shock (I may be mixing up my causes of symptoms here.(have to look it up). Have you ever measured your KH?
Disclaimer: I would not take it as truth unless some one else here confirms this)
--but really this should be a moot point if you did a large water change after the cycle

Your tank conditions sound better than mine generally are...and you did more for your fish than I did when I started...I find it difficult to think it is your practices

[andy]

Peregrine, thanks for your response. To answer your questions:-

I measured the parameters on Saturday afternoon at 4.30pm before introducing the F8. Ammonia and Nitrite were 0ppm and Nitrate 10ppm. I didn't measure the parameters on Sunday for fear of causing stress, but measured on Monday at about 2.00pm after the death. The readings were the same as on Saturday.

The F8s were kept in FW and yes my tank is setup also for FW.

The tank setup is all new and has never held other fish and I have therefore never used copper based medicine.

You mention Osmotic shock. What is this and what causes this?

[The Fisherman]

hmmm, im sorry for your loss. perhaps your LFS just got a 'bad shipment' . sounds like you did everything right.

osmotic shock is when the SG goes up to quickly for a fishes system, which causes it to go into shock.

the fact that the puffers were lethargic and bumping into things is a definite sign of stress. what caused it i cant tell you.

how were the F8s colors? were they deep and vibrant, or light and washed out?

are you using a heater in your tank?

it sound slike you care a lot for your fishes, i dont think it was your fault at all.

[Pufferpunk]

Question: How is measuring parameters causing your fish stresss?

[andy]

Thanks Fisherman, I do care for my fish and have tried to do as much research before purchasing the F8 to avoid the problems I have been having!

Although I agree that it could be put down to a dodgy batch at the LFS, I am concerned that I have now had two on separate occasions from the same batch and both have died in similar ways. Is this not to much of a coincidence?

The colours on the back appeared washed out at the LFS but I thought this was just down to individual markings. I looked at the belly and this was white in colour. I am aware that the belly will change colour and become more grey as the puffer becomes stressed. The edges of the belly, i.e. where it meets the vibrant colours/markings appeared to be mottled grey but the rest of the belly appeared white. Is this a sign of stress? I have also read that puffers are more likely to be washed out first thing in the morning is this correct?

I have a 100W heater in the tank and the thermometer reads a constant 78 deg F. Is this correct or should it be higher or lower?

[andy]

Pufferpunk, I appreciate that measuring parameters will not cause stress. I tried to leave the F8 alone and not disturb it unnecessarily hence the reason why I didn't take measurements on Sunday. I guess after my first puffers death I have become paranoid!

[Pufferpunk]

It sounds to me that you are (& have been) doing everything exactally right (more so than most). I would also chalk it up to a bad batch of probably mistreated puffers.

[susiejames101]

Is there any possibility of there being some other chemical in the ammonia? just a thought!
Sue

[andy]

The Ammonia that I am using is household Ammonia which I purchased from my local DIY store Homebase. I have checked the ingredients and all that is listed is "Ammonia solution 9.5%". When I researched fishless cycling I was aware that some household Ammonia products can contain other additives and perfumes. The article suggested that one way to check was to shake the bottle. If it froths then it is not pure Ammonia. The Ammonia I have certainly doesn't froth when shaken, although this may not prove anything! Thanks for the thought

[Peregrine]

I was just asking questions (shots in the dark)

RTR could better describe osmotic shock
while part of it may be contained in the SG...I believe it has more to do with TDS ( I thought it had more to do with KH) (usually mistakenly called PH shock)(your PH looked ok..as long as there was not a large difference between your LFS and your home water supply parameters, and fish were acclimated slowly (which you did).It probably would not have been an issue

When I fish-less cycled my tank..I spiked my levels hard..and started burning up my KH, and lowering my PH...I buffered it with baking soda to avoid crashing the tank, but was warned to add very little at a time, because raising it to fast could cause osmotic shock (in the bacteria-but would also have the same effect on fish)

As far as your other questions
1) if you add 15ml of ammonia (forget the tank size)..but if there are no measurable amounts of ammonia/nitrite after 24 hrs...you tank is cycled
You could test this..measure your levels 20 min after adding ammonia, you should have detectable levels of at least ammonia.
Even if it was not cycled..it is doubtful it would kill a fish that fast after a 90% water change
2)I use the same stuff..as well as Prime (not at the same time) and no ill effects
3)don't believe the herbal additives caused the deaths
4)Yes...there are harmful things in your tap water..but in extremely low levels..It has to be safe enough for human consumption...you could request a break down and tolerance levels from your utility
5)doubtful
6)possible--but refreezing them should have killed off most pathogens
7)don't think plants are a problem..do you fertilize them or add any additives for the plants?

I am with everyone else...I think it had more to do with the batch at the LFS than anything you did

[ChesapeakeSwellfish]

Just a shot in the dark here - rarely, dissolved oxygen levels are too low. This is not a problem if your filter is causing sufficient agitation/aeration. What type of filter are you using?

[andy]

Peregrine, thanks for your detailed response.

I carried out a fishless cycle by spiking Ammonia levels to 4ppm. This took 30 drops of Ammonia solution. Once Ammonia levels started to drop I re-added Ammonia solution but half the dosage hence 15 drops. I maintained this dosage on a daily basis and waited for a Nitrite spike. I then waited for both Ammonia and Nitrite levels to drop to 0ppm which indicated that the tank had cycled. I didn't measure pH throughout this, should I have?

I will double check that my tank has cycled by carrying out your test.

What is Prime?

I don't fertilise or add any additives for the plants. The reason why I mentioned the plants was that I recall reading somewhere that at night time plants "absorb" oxygen rather than produce it (this could be complete rubbish!!) I was therefore wondering that if this is the case, if you have too many plants could you cause oxygen starvation?

Thanks once again

[Phaedrus]

I'm thinking that it could be a combination of really weakened puffers finally succumbing after the added stress of entering a new home.

What procedure did you use when introducing the puffer to your tank?

Was the trip from the LFS to your home excessively stressful? IE, lots of bumpiness, bright light, lots of movement...

When you added the fish, how did you get him into your tank?

If you get the puffer in a plastic bag, do they fill the remainder of the bag with oxygen, or do they just tie it up? Do they wrap it in brown paper or something dark before giving it to you?

You can slowly acclimate the fish to your water by floating the open bag in your aquarium for a while to get the temps matched, and then adding a bit of your water, waiting, and then removing and discarding some of the water from the bag, and then adding more of your water, and repeating until only your water remains in the bag, at which point you can add the fish directly to the tank.

Bumping up the SG a bit soon after you add them to the tank may help. Very small bump. If you're fresh water now, maybe raise the SG by 0.001. It may bolster their immune system.

Seachem Prime is the water conditioner of choice for serious aquarium hobbyists.

[The Fisherman]

hmmm, yeah i had a big problem ( more of a problem in my imagination) with amonia solution. i had already added it, then i read that you ca shake it to see if theres additives, and it frothed!!!!! i was horified! i was freaking out !! i even called the manufactureer for a ingredient list ( which i STILL havent received). eventually i figured out that since there was no ingredient list, that it was mostly water. if there was additives in my ammonia, it wasnt strong enough to harm anything.

ok, that was kind of unnescesary for me to say, but...

i agree with x0rtrunks. sounds like really weakend puffers.