Guilt ridden, first death!!

andy · Post by **andy** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:30 am

After months of research, planning and preparation I finally bought my first f8 puffer on Saturday morning. Unfortunately he passed away on Sunday evening and I am now guilt ridden and unsure whether his death was caused by something I did or didn't do or whether it was just a case of bad luck. I will describe what I carried out during the days leading up to this event. I am a novice to fish keeping so any advice would be most gratefully received.

I have a 60 litre tank which is well planted with Java fern and has slate rock work to provide hiding places and areas to explore and gravel substrate. I am aware of the use of aragonite to buffer Ph but chose not to use this because the PH of my tap water is high at 8.0. I am aware of the fact that F8's require light brackish water conditions but most LFS keep them in freshwater conditions. For this reason My tank was set-up for freshwater with the intention to increase the salinity over a period of months.

About a month ago I carried out a fishless cycle on the tank by adding ammonia solution and waited for an Ammonia spike followed by a Nitrite Spike. This occurred and after about 2 weeks the Ammonia and Nitrite readings fell back to 0ppm. I continued to add ammonia solution to the tank on a daily basis to feed the bacteria colony whilst waiting for the f8's to arrive at my LFS. During this period Ammonia and Nitrite levels remained at a constant 0ppm, whilst Nitrate remained at a constant 40ppm. I assumed that given these readings my tank had successfully cycled and it would be safe to add a f8.

On Friday, the night before getting my F8 I prepared 25 litres of water so that I could carry out a water change the following morning. I prepared the water by adding two cap fulls of "Nutrafin Water Conditioner Aqua Plus", a heater to warm the water to 78 deg F and an air pump/airstone to aerate the water.

On Saturday morning I carried out the water change before visiting the LFS to buy my F8. After the water change Ammonia measured 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 20ppm and Ph 8.0. I was happy with these readings so decided to make a visit to the LFS.

The LFS warned me that they had had difficulties acclimatising the F8's and had already had two fatalities since receiving them on Tuesday. Undeterred I purchased what I thought was the healthiest specimen with few nipped fins, bright white belly and showing signs of activity with no lumps or bumps on its body. I confirmed with the LFS that they were keeping them in freshwater conditions.

The LFS placed the F8 in a transportation bag which I then placed in a plastic container in the event that the F8 might bight through the bag. It was a cold day so I turned the heating up in the car and had about a 20 minute journey back home.

On returning home I opened the bag, rolled down the sides and placed it in the tank to allow the temperatures to equalise. Every now and then I added a little water from the tank into the bag. After about 20 minutes I released the F8 into the tank. He seemed quite content exploring or just floating on the current, although he appeared to spend most of his time at the top of the tank and near the sides and he appeared to be breathing quite quickly. He would also have rest periods where he would lay on a rock or on the surface of the tank. That evening I fed him some frozen bloodworms which I had defrosted using tepid water from a kettle. He loved these and ate all of them, I was very encouraged by this.

On Sunday morning I woke up and checked that everything was O.K. He was quite active and showed no signs of stress, i.e. his belly was bright white. I checked the temperature which was reading 75deg F. I turned the thermostat up to 78deg F. I was happy with his condition so went out for the day. On returning later that evening at about 6 o'clock I noticed that he was resting under a rock overhang and appeared lethargic and not very interested in food or me. All he would do was swim from one hiding place to another. I checked the temperature which was reading 80deg F. Eventually I found him resting on his side on the bottom of the tank dead. I took the following water readings, Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm and Nitrate 40ppm. I didn't measure the Ph

I would dearly love to successfully keep one of these fascinating animals but not at the expense of several deaths on my conscious. I would be most grateful for any advice and in particular with what I should now do with the tank. Do I need to clean/scrub all of the substrate, filter, rock and tank to eliminate the risk of disease? If I do this am I correct in thinking that I will have to cycle the tank again? As you may have guessed I am confused and need some help.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:54 am

Sorry for your loss
Sounds like what you did, you did right
--I don't know if I would break down the tank and start over...but some times it is better to be safe
--one could add another hardy breed to the water and see how it fairs..
a molly ?...but this guinea pig approach may not be acceptable

Post by **Hilly** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:56 am

Doesnt sound like you could have done much more in terms or preparation.

What concerns me more is the fish shop got them in on Tuesday and sold one to you on the Saturday. Doesnt sound like they had a 30 day quarantine period and some of his tankmates had died. You may have just been unlucky this time and the fish was doomed before you got him.

Post by **Pufferpunk** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:42 am

I can't immagine you doing more than you did for preperation for your puffer. Kudos to you! I would say that was probably a "bad batch". Can you try somewhere else? I am concerned about a shop that had fish dying in a tank & still willing to sell more fish out of that tank, without waiting to see if the rest were ok.

Phaedrus · Post by **Phaedrus** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:50 am

There's a pretty high mortality rate on puffers that make it to the LFS. So you may have just been unlucky. This seems especially likely since the LFS was reporting troubles already.

When you added him to your tank, did you pour the water from the LFS in with him?

If I were you, I don't think I'd tear down the tank. I'd probably do a complete water change though. And if you did want to tear downt he tank and start fresh, you could keep the filter and media running in some saved tank water while you do it. That would preserve a majority of the bacteria.

You did everything you could have. Very few people actually do the amount of preperation you did.

I'd keep the tank fed for a while and ask the LFS to keep one on hold for you if any survive and then pick it up after a few weeks of quarentine.

Post by **Pufferpunk** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:08 pm

Also, keep feeding the tank w/ammonia, until you find another puffer. Then do a 90% water change.

andy · Post by **andy** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:24 pm

Thank you all for your kind words of support I didnn't think I had done anything wrong, but it is nice to have this confirmed by experts.

x0rtrunks you ask whether I poured the water from the LFS into the tank, I did do this. Could this have caused the problem?

I have a few further questions.

1) When you transport a new puffer back from the LFS should you cover them up and keep them in darkness to cause less stress?

2) When you have introduced a new puffer into a new tank, should you again leave them in darkness for a period of time say 24 hours and should you attempt to feed them?

3) I have an air pump and air stone in the tank to aerate the water is it possible to over oxygenate or under oxygenate the water? How can you check?

4) Finally, if your tap water contains Nitrate, is there anyway that this can be removed/reduced everytime a water change is carried out?

Thanks again for all of your support

Andy

Raphael · Post by **Raphael** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:44 pm

1) Yes, keeping them in the darkness causes less stress.

2) I would leave the light on after they are in.

3) If your fish is gasping and you have put a fair amount of oxygen, then you are over-oxygenating.

4) The best way to reduce nitrate is to use Seachem Prime.

Phaedrus · Post by **Phaedrus** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:17 pm

It's a good idea not to pour the water from the LFS into your tank to minimize any contamination that might come along with their water.

It probably wouldn't have made a difference in your case unless it was specifically the water from the lfs that was causing the puffers to die. that's unlikely.

Post by **RTR** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:28 pm

"2) I would leave the light on after they are in."

That is incorrect. Best practice would be to leave the tanks lights off but room/area lights on for some time after the fish is introduced. Return to normal light schedule the following day.

"3) If your fish is gasping and you have put a fair amount of oxygen, then you are over-oxygenating. "

Sorry, but I do not understand that at all. Would you like to clarify your meaning?

Saturation for O2 dissolved in water is quite low, ~9ppm or less at tank temps, it is impossible to exceed that by aeratation - or ordinarily, to even get very close. Heavily planted tanks with CO2 and strong light and very little or no surface disturbance do commonly supersaturate up to 12ppm or higher with no detrimental effect on the fish whatsover.

Fish do not gasp from high O2 levels. They gasp from low O2 levels or from gill damage.

"4) The best way to reduce nitrate is to use Seachem Prime."

That is incorrect. The best way to reduce nitrate is by partial water changes.

andy · Post by **andy** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:54 am

Thanks again for all the help. I have some further questions:-

1) I have had difficulty finding LFS that stock F8's. I had to wait 3 months before I purchased my doomed specimen. Some LFS's have said that they are seasonal. Is this correct? Is there a good or bad time to obtain them?

2) Given the fact that the F8 I bought passed away, should I go back to the same LFS in say a weeks time and purchase another (if they still have them), or should I leave well alone and try elsewhere?

3) If I need to broaden my search for F8's how well do they travel and what is the maximum amount of time you can safely keep a F8 in the transportation bags provided by the LFS? To obtain another F8 from another LFS I may have an increased journey time of up to 1 hour.

4) When you introduce a F8 into a new tank there must be a critical period of time for them to acclimatise and settle in. On average how long does this take?

Thanks once again

Andy

ChesapeakeSwellfish · Post by **ChesapeakeSwellfish** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:30 am

Can't help with #1 & 2 - lots of variables.
#3. Its always a good idea to transport fish in insulated containers. Coolers work fine but are usually bright white inside, so line it with a dark plastic bag before placing your fish bag inside. Personally, I use my lunch cooler. Of course, the fish bag should have oxygen added by the LFS, so a short trip of an hour should present no problem (having just driven home 10 hours straight, and three days earlier 12 hours, long drives are more stressful to the driver than to fish passengers).

lisalisa · Post by **lisalisa** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:44 am

Ahh, glad you're back CSF.

ChesapeakeSwellfish · Post by **ChesapeakeSwellfish** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:48 am

Thanks LL - I missed my puffer buddies!

English George · Post by **English George** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:51 am

Sorry for your loss. I don't think you could have done much to prevent it. When the LFS said they were having problems you should have left the puffer there - heart breaking, I know. Nitrate will always be a problem in UK unless you use RO water b ut that has its own set of problems!
Chin up!

The Puffer Forum

The Puffer Store

Guilt ridden, first death!!

Guilt ridden, first death!!