Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

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Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by J-P »

This is just for general knowledge and not an emergency. I thought Ich had a 3 stage development:
1)cyst
2) free swimming and looking for a host
3) found the host and it is a parasite dropping eggs (#1) all over the place.

This is similar to flea development.
Another person mentioned that there is a 4th stage:
As long as the trophont stage of the parasite in incysted in the cuticle of the fish, no meds will affect. When the tomont stage leaves the fish to swim to the bottom then meds will affect it. Once, on the bottom the chems will no longer affect it. When the tomites are release back into the water column to find a host then the chems will affect it again. Vacuming the gravel will help remove some of the tomites
That is a 4 stage development... and for years I was under the impression it was 3 stage. Can anyone confirm / deny or enlighten?
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Re: Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by Pufferpunk »

Isn't it the same as #3?
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

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Re: Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by Puffer King »

that is 3 stages ??!?
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Re: Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by Pufferpunk »

Yep, just like fleas.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

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Re: Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by Dadof4 »

I've heard it both ways but it is confusing. There are three maturation stages the parasite goes through in life but it's actual infection cycle (for lack of a better term) consists of four phases. There is the trophozoite stage where it attaches to the fish, lives off the fish and becomes encapsulated. As the trophozoite matures, it becomes known as a hard trophont and leaves the cyst and sinks to the bottom of the aquarium. On the bottom the trophant reproduces by splitting within itself and then bursting and releasing tomites. The tomites swim to find a host and start the cycle all over.

The infestation cycle is considered four phases: living on the host, falling from the host, reproducing on the bottom, and free swimming and seeking a new host.
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Re: Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by RTR »

+1 to Dadof4's comments. That is to me clear and accurate.

To me, J-P's first post is muddled, both his description and the quote. Both are confusing and misleading - actually in error.
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Re: Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by J-P »

Thank for the replies.

Sorry it sounded confusing. That is because I was confused. I am trying to do some online research on it now and learn as much as I can about it.
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Re: Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by RTR »

Things which are important to know about FW Ich:

1. It is a temperate water parasite. Wild caught tropicals have no immunity.

2. It is a gill parasite primarily, preferring the gill epithelium above all other sites for infection. This means that you may have Ich in a tank with no visible lesions. Visible somatic (body and fin) lesions imply that the gills are already heavily infested.

3. Ich has no dormant form. The parasite's life cycle requires approximately 3 days, but only in the true tropical temperature range of mid to upper 70sF. Above 80F the parasite does not do well. Lower temperatures greatly extend the length of the life cycle.

4. The only form which can be treated in tanks by medication is the free-swimming infectious stage, which must find a host within hours or it will die.

5. Chronic low-grade infections are possible and are not rare.

6. Post-infection and chronically infected fish have antibodies against the parasite. But stress of any sort can reduce the fish's immune function enough to make the antibodies ineffective. Water quality is very important in maintaining immune levels, ditto for freedom from stress by other fish. Immunity against the parasite does fade with time in other than chronically infected tanks.

7. Natural immunity varies widely with the fish species and the age of the fish.

8. Warmer water holds less oxygen. Uninfected fish may well be fine at temperatures which infected fish cannot survive due to the reduction in gill function. Recovered fish will eventually repair or replace damaged gill filaments, but some degree of scarring is apparently permanent, with some degree of gill function reduction commonly being permanent.

There may be more, but that is all I can remember at the moment...

HTH

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Re: Is there a FW Ich expert in the house?

Post by J-P »

Thank you for the info. I had found a few articles on them yesterday. This does help simplify the things.

http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_n ... 197_1.html

http://www.maine.gov/ifw/fishing/health/vol3issue4.htm

http://www.freshwaterlife.org/imagearch ... temId=3930
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