Advice on Pea Puffers (DPs)

[CyberBob]

This is an old post. I no longer monitor it.
Please do not reply to it.

I am setting up a species tank for the pea puffer (Carinotetraodon travancoricus).
It is a 29 gallon tank with plenty of plants and hiding areas.
I have been looking all over the net and have found very different numbers of how many I should keep together.
Taking into consideration that I have 2 oto cats, 10 neons (if they don't get eaten) and a bristlenose pleco, I'm not sure how many DPs I should stock.

One place says 5g for the 1st DP, 2g for every other puff. (sounds about right to me)
So, that would be about 12-13 (13 is my lucky #). Minus <?> for the other fish = # DPs?
I probably won't even count the neons since I will most likely move them to the community tank and increase the school in there.
Then again, I might just leave them ... as long as they stay alive that is.
I have noticed the puffers ignore the black neons (prolly looks like an oto to them, the otos try schooling wqith them).
They love to follow the blue (common) neons but haven't even tried to nibble (yet).

Other sources have stated that 20 is a good number for a 30g tank.
Yet another source stated 5g per DP period. that would be 6 ... minus existing fish, I'm already full.

I keep reading that this particular puff does better in larger groups. Strange, since most puffs are loners.
I curently have 5 DPs, but I can't seem to ever find one of them. There is another one that only comes out for food.
I really only have 2 active DPs and 1 semi-active DP. then, I have the lazy puff that comes out for food. Lastly, I have a puff that must hide constantly. I thought he was dead, so I removed all the rocks & decor to find his body. Then, there were 5 swimming and starring at me like I just destroyed their world ... I sorta did I suppose. I currently have a GSP in the tank with them ... don't worry, he's just a baby ... about 3\4 inch, maybe 1 inch max.
If I can't figure out how to keep him without buying a new tank, I will have to give him up for adoption at my LFS.
I really want to keep him in there with them, he is so cute. But, as he gets older he has different requirements from the DPs.
I'm still thinking of moving these 5 DPs to my community tank and leaving the GSP in the tank alone with some giant danios.
If only I knew they would be OK in the community tank. I also have to consider my Angel, but I could move her into a 10g with my betta if need be.
The other fish can all outrun the DPs. I would probably have to worry about the gourami or redtail shark eating them though.

Ugh! Such a dilemma. I want to keep them all, but I also want them all to be happy and healthy.

Thanks,
Bob

[Nuclear_Glitter]

Firstly, Welcome.

Now, I honestly think that it's best to always give puffers the exact amount needed. Most people will say that with dwarf puffers it's 5 per gallon and the 3 for each one after. However, the rule of more is always better is very, very true with puffers. As you said in your post you will need to find a different tank for your GSP, because no matter how small and nice he is now he will most likely be aggressive in the future and even now their salt requirements are different because dwarf puffers are freshwater and GSP are brackish, and a high end brackish at that (moving to full marine as an adult). Now, I most definitely do not recommend, nor do I want you putting your dwarf puffers with your community fish. Even if your fish are fast, fins will inevitably get nipped at some point, causing harm and stress. All puffers gang up on other prey, and they will see your community as prey.

Now if you absolutely cannot get your GSP a 30+ gallon tank, to be by himself, DO NOT KEEP HIM! Keeping a species only tank is very important and I would hate for you to have to experience death of any other fish.

As far as the dwarf puffers go, I myself would say 13 is too many. Even if you go with the rule of 5 for the first and 3 for each additional you can only get nine. Now please bear in mind that puffers are EXTREMELY messy and will require 50% water changes weekly. Also they can be very territorial, regardless of species. If you decide to get this many make sure you have a very large female to male ratio. I'd say 8 girls to 1 boy is best.

I suggest you move your neons to the community and get your GSP out of the dwarf puffer tank because he needs salt, and he needs it fast. Also, he needs marine salt, not aquarium.

if your puffers are not extremely active please test your tank water and make sure your conditions are not making them unhappy. Also, please be sure you're caring for them in all the right ways.

Also, please read these articles: library/puffer-care/alone-but-not-lonel ... fers-solo/
ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Freshwater/C_Travancoricus/
ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Brackish/T_Nigroviridis/

best of luck and have fun!

[Phoenix91]

Having just gotten dps about 2 weeks ago i can tell you that less is more. I have 2 in a 20g and they're so happy. Even with 2 i'm always stressed about if 1 is eating more than the other (which does occasionally happen). You already have 5 right? would these be moving into the 29g tank?

I would also suggest that if your fish aren't active something's not right. Mine are constantly zooming around the place. The only time they're not active is when they're sleeping, and even then as soon as they wake up enough they're off again.

[Pufferpunk]

It is also very important when keeping multiples of DPs to be able to sex them, as males will fight to the death. 1 M/2-3 F. TONs of plants & complicated decor is necessary to break up lines of sight & give them all territories.

[CyberBob]

Firstly, Welcome.

Thanks

Now, I honestly think that it's best to always give puffers the exact amount needed. Most people will say that with dwarf puffers it's 5 per gallon and the 3 for each one after. However, the rule of more is always better is very, very true with puffers.

That sounds about right to me

As you said in your post you will need to find a different tank for your GSP, because no matter how small and nice he is now he will most likely be aggressive in the future and even now their salt requirements are different because dwarf puffers are freshwater and GSP are brackish, and a high end brackish at that (moving to full marine as an adult). Now, I most definitely do not recommend, nor do I want you putting your dwarf puffers with your community fish. Even if your fish are fast, fins will inevitably get nipped at some point, causing harm and stress. All puffers gang up on other prey, and they will see your community as prey.

Yeah, I figured they would kind of act like a wolf pack ... That's why I was planning a Species Tank.
I was just throwing out some ideas on how I could keep them all. No community for them

Now if you absolutely cannot get your GSP a 30+ gallon tank, to be by himself, DO NOT KEEP HIM! Keeping a species only tank is very important and I would hate for you to have to experience death of any other fish.

Spike (GSP) will be put up for adoption today at my LFS. I will get some more DPs while I'm there also.
I'm gonna miss the lil guy, he's soooo cute.
There are some pictures of him in the TPF Gallery. He has a very unique pattern compared to other GSPs.

As far as the dwarf puffers go, I myself would say 13 is too many. Even if you go with the rule of 5 for the first and 3 for each additional you can only get nine. Now please bear in mind that puffers are EXTREMELY messy and will require 50% water changes weekly. Also they can be very territorial, regardless of species. If you decide to get this many make sure you have a very large female to male ratio. I'd say 8 girls to 1 boy is best.

9 Sounds like a good number ... 5 + (3x8) 24 = 29 ... Perfect ratio. Thanks
I haven't really found them to be messy thus far. But, then again they mostly just keep chowing down on the snails and seem to be ignoring all freeze dried and frozen foods. Luckily I have 4 tanks where I have been breeding snails. But, I'm still not sure the snails will reproduce fast enough hehe.
I can't tell their sex yet, too small. I know that none of them have a brown line and I can't see any wrinkles, but my eyes aren't what they used to be.

I suggest you move your neons to the community and get your GSP out of the dwarf puffer tank because he needs salt, and he needs it fast. Also, he needs marine salt, not aquarium.

I'm guessing you don't think the neons have a chance with the DPs? I could put the giant danios in ... I got them to be tankmates for my GSPs originally.
I might keep the black neons in there, but move the blur ones. They seem to completely ignore the black neons. They do look a lil like otos.

if your puffers are not extremely active please test your tank water and make sure your conditions are not making them unhappy. Also, please be sure you're caring for them in all the right ways.

I just tested everything (API master kit). Everything is coming back in the ranges I expected.
PH = 8.0 (was keeping it this high for GSPs) I can probably lower it for the DPs, huh?
Ammonia, Nitrates & Nitrites all = 0. I like to use Seachem Aquarium Prime to keep it in check.
The only thing that might be making them unhappy is the SL, which is at 1.003. I had it at 1.015 for the GSP and did a few dumps over a week to lower it to this point. But, I remember reading they like a lil salt, in fact if I want to breed them, most sources say salt is required. I was planning to keep the SL at 1.002 for these lil guys. Is that too high for them? I can continue water changes if need be.
I am going through a mini-cycle because of all the water changes though.

Thanks Again for your Help

Having just gotten dps about 2 weeks ago i can tell you that less is more. I have 2 in a 20g and they're so happy. Even with 2 i'm always stressed about if 1 is eating more than the other (which does occasionally happen). You already have 5 right? would these be moving into the 29g tank? I would also suggest that if your fish aren't active something's not right. Mine are constantly zooming around the place. The only time they're not active is when they're sleeping, and even then as soon as they wake up enough they're off again.

[/quote]
1st, let me say ... I LOVE the phoenix. I have one tattoed over my heart.

Everywhere I have read have said that this particular puffer does better in larger groups. Most puffers are loners, but not these guys apparently.

It does seem like there are a couple dominant ones that tend to eat 1st.
I just make sure there are enough snails to go around. I dump in about 20 every other day right now.
Luckily, I've been breeding them in all my tanks for the last few months preparing for Puffers. I have a few thousand already.
It only took about 3 months to go from 100 snails to about 5000 snails.

The DPs are already in a 29g tank actually.

None of them are zooming But, that might be because of the GSP, which will be rehomed today.

Thanks Agagin for your Help

[CyberBob]

It is also very important when keeping multiples of DPs to be able to sex them, as males will fight to the death. 1 M/2-3 F. TONs of plants & complicated decor is necessary to break up lines of sight & give them all territories.

Either I have a tank full of females or they are still too young to show the brown line on the tummy. I can't see any wrinkles around their eyes either.
I should probably add a few more plants. I only have 8 plants (asst sizes), a chunk of coral, and a few decorative cave like structures.

Right now, they only see each other when hunting for snails ... I kept a nice clearing in the front of the tank so I could watch them hunt.
The rest of the time, they all seem to be in the plants and such.

[Nuclear_Glitter]

I definitely do not recommend the giant danios with the DPs because the danios will be mean to the puffers. They're extremely fast swimming and nip anyone's fins they can get to pretty much. I myself have 2 giant danios, they used to be in a community because I was informed they were peaceful, nice fish. I woke up the next day and all the community fish were extremely stressed (puffing, tore up fins, one dead guppy). So, honestly I don't recommend having giant danios with much of anything. (I have mine with some rosy red minnows).

I'm glad you made the right choice for your GSP.

Now for your Dwarf puffers I do recommend you lower your pH to 6.5 - 7.2 and I say you need to do water changes until your salinity is non-existent. I haven't read anything about DP's needing salt to breed, but I also have never breed DP's. However in the pufferpedia about DP's it's said that they need nothing from their caregiver to breed (except clean water). Right now I'm sure your puffers are always hiding because they're very unhappy with their water conditions.

As far as your mini-cycle problem from water change I think instead of using a gravel vac just get a bucket and empty about 50% of the water out and put it back (don't forget to condition. The Prime is a great choice). Then if this doesn't remove all your salinity wait three days and do it all again.

Now as far as new DPs I'd say wait until you completely get rid of you salinity and your pH lowered. Also, once your water conditions are perfect for DPs see if they're attitude changes at all because they may be a lot better and happier (more active over-all).

[Pufferpunk]

No need to do anything to the pH--it will stabilize at whatever the tap water is at, with WC.

[CyberBob]

No need to do anything to the pH--it will stabilize at whatever the tap water is at, with WC.

my tapwater tested at 8.6 ... gawd, i drink this stuff?

[CyberBob]

I definitely do not recommend the giant danios with the DPs because the danios will be mean to the puffers. They're extremely fast swimming and nip anyone's fins they can get to pretty much. I myself have 2 giant danios, they used to be in a community because I was informed they were peaceful, nice fish. I woke up the next day and all the community fish were extremely stressed (puffing, tore up fins, one dead guppy). So, honestly I don't recommend having giant danios with much of anything. (I have mine with some rosy red minnows).

I thought that could happen. I had them to keep my GSPs company. They were about the only fish I could find that made a decent tankmate.

I'm glad you made the right choice for your GSP.

It was a tough choice, but I had to do it.

Now for your Dwarf puffers I do recommend you lower your pH to 6.5 - 7.2 and I say you need to do water changes until your salinity is non-existent. I haven't read anything about DP's needing salt to breed, but I also have never breed DP's. However in the pufferpedia about DP's it's said that they need nothing from their caregiver to breed (except clean water). Right now I'm sure your puffers are always hiding because they're very unhappy with their water conditions.

When I looked up their stats, it just said above 7.0, so I assumed they liked it around 8.0 like most other puffers I have encountered so far. I'll try to lower that PH, but it can be tricky. I managed to stabilize it at 8.2 using crushed coral \ baking soda \ cuttlebone \ epsom salt combinations. The marine salt helped also, but I need to switch to aquarium salt now.

As far as your mini-cycle problem from water change I think instead of using a gravel vac just get a bucket and empty about 50% of the water out and put it back (don't forget to condition. The Prime is a great choice). Then if this doesn't remove all your salinity wait three days and do it all again.

I have a mini-cycle everytime i change the water and \ or filter media. I have created a "super cartridge" now. Withing the last 3 days actually. No more cartridges for meh hehe. To make it, I sandwich biomax ceramic and carbon (when needed) in between blue\white combo sponge and filter fiber. Then I take one of my old cartridges and gut it. I then use the frame from the cratridge to hold everything in the blue tray thingy (aqueon filter). Once the BB start growing on the ceramic, I shouldn't have a problem with cycles anymore ... I hope.

Now as far as new DPs I'd say wait until you completely get rid of you salinity and your pH lowered. Also, once your water conditions are perfect for DPs see if they're attitude changes at all because they may be a lot better and happier (more active over-all).

I have 5 DPs on order ... I currently have 4 DPs in the tank. The 5 I ordered as females. I noticed 2 of the lil buggers fighting over a shot glass today. (makes a perfect cave for the lil guys). once he won and the other swam over to a different shot glass, I noticed there was a DP in the shot glass they other 2 were fighting over. The winner made no attempt to kick the other DP out of his new home that he had just won. I'm thinking perhaps those two might have been fighting for her as well. the 4th one doesn't come out much, just hides in the back of the tank until it smells food. Promptly eats and then dissapears into my plants again. Anyways, I think I could have 2-3 males max right now. although none are showing the brown line or wrinkles. so, ordering 5 females will just settle them down if anything. It will be about 2 weeks before the new DPs arrive, plenty of time to get everything in line.

[Nuclear_Glitter]

Well, hopefully the females settle everything down. (I love the shot-glass cave idea. I have some plant pots for my GSP).

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with everything and that's a cool idea for the filter thing, should clear your mini-cycles up.

[RTR]

Do not try to "adjust" the pH of the water. Do you have liquid test kits? And if so, do you know the KH of your water? The KH of the water control the pH. If your tap water is stable well above pH 8, you can reduce it by mixing tap water and RO water for water changes. That way you can stabilize the tank at a lower pH.

Do. not use commercial buffers. They are not stable and can play havoc with the water quality.

HTH

[Phoenix91]

Having just gotten dps about 2 weeks ago i can tell you that less is more. I have 2 in a 20g and they're so happy. Even with 2 i'm always stressed about if 1 is eating more than the other (which does occasionally happen). You already have 5 right? would these be moving into the 29g tank? I would also suggest that if your fish aren't active something's not right. Mine are constantly zooming around the place. The only time they're not active is when they're sleeping, and even then as soon as they wake up enough they're off again.

[/quote]
1st, let me say ... I LOVE the phoenix. I have one tattoed over my heart.

Everywhere I have read have said that this particular puffer does better in larger groups. Most puffers are loners, but not these guys apparently.

It does seem like there are a couple dominant ones that tend to eat 1st.
I just make sure there are enough snails to go around. I dump in about 20 every other day right now.
Luckily, I've been breeding them in all my tanks for the last few months preparing for Puffers. I have a few thousand already.
It only took about 3 months to go from 100 snails to about 5000 snails.

The DPs are already in a 29g tank actually.

None of them are zooming But, that might be because of the GSP, which will be rehomed today.

Thanks Agagin for your Help [/quote]

My horse is actually called Phoenix, i would love to get a tattoo of one for him but haven't found the right one yet.

If i had been planning on getting more than 1 dp i would have gone for 3 (1 m, 2 f) but unfortunately i was only planning on 1 and ended up with 2 due to a misunderstanding at my lfs. I'm happy with the 2, if they fight then i'll get a third (another female) as i think i have 1 of each right now.

I drop the snails in individually and watch the puffers watch them, i've just got done medicating mine for IPs and they both go nuts over the snails without medication. I've dropped a couple of larger snails in hoping they won't get eaten and will make snail babies in the dp tank.

Once the gsp is moved watch for a change in behaviour, hopefully they'll perk up a bit.

[Pufftastic]

I agree with Phoenix91, less is more when stocking DPs. I had 5 babies in a 29 gallon, with no other fish or aquatic life. Once their sexes became apparent and they had matured, I discovered I had 3 males and 2 females, and the males were having nasty little fights. Two went back to the LFS.

I now have just the 3 remaining DPs in 29 gallons -- and I honestly can't imagine having any more than that. They use every single square inch of tank space.

[CyberBob]

I picked up my new babies today. I made sure to sex them myself. This batch were old enough to sex. I got 5 females (I put 3 males back). I decided to sex my existing DPs before I added the new laides. So, I took out all the decorations and caught all the existing DPs. To my surprise, I had 5. I only ever saw 3 ... but i thought there was a 4th hiding somehwre. Then, I actually found one in my community tank. He must have got caught by mistake when I was moving the Danios. FYI, I returned the giant danios today cause they were picking on everyone in the community tank, that's how I happened across the one loner DP. He must have been in there for about a week or so. But, he was probably happy enough. I breed snails in my community tank, so it must have been like a buffet to him. I easily have over 1000 snails in that tank ... probably closer to 2000. Anyways, from my existing DPs, I sexed 3 females and 1 male with a light brown line (not as dark as the bigger boys I put back at my LFS). I had one that I'm not sure of ... He\she has a small mark under the chin. kind of a very short reddish line. It looks like it could be the beginning of a line possibly. The belly is all round & white though. Could this have also been their keel? I've never seen one. I though the males had keels and that's why we see a brown line on their belly and across the top. But, do females have something similar or could it be that I have a pre-teen male going through "the change"? None of the others have this mark at all. So, I now either have 1 male with 9 females ... or 2 males with 8 females. Has anyone ever seen the small red line before? I think there are enough females that the 2 wouldn't fight, but I would still like to know if I have 1 or 2 boys. So, my ratio is either 1m > 9f or 2 groups of 1m > 4f.

Well, I aclimated the gals slowly, then added them to the boys (which were in my breeder box floating). Then, I added all 10 to the tank at the same time (After everything had been re-arranged, so there shouldn be set territories). At 1st the all went straight for the plants of course. But, they didn't stay there long. Before I knew it, they were all exploring the tank. After about 10 minutes of exploring they all formed a single file line following my largest female. When she stopped, they would all swim around a bit, but stay as a group. The 5 existing ones I had never acted like this before. I'm guessing they like the new gals and just want to school a bit. Over the last few hours, they have paired off a bit to explore, but keep coming back together every 10 minutes or so.