Advice for treating sick Figure Eight Puffer

[einhorn]

My figure-eight puffer fish is sick and I’m hoping that I can get some advice.

I got this fish about a month ago. It’s been very active, and in effect, ruled the tank. It chased other smaller fish. It even showed no fear of the black ghost knife fish. The two just pass each other by, no fear or chasing on either part.

Earlier this week I fed it as usual (bloodworms), and after feeding, I noticed that it was having trouble swimming. It would eventually float on top, upside down, and appeared bloated. I isolated it and by the next morning the floating problem was gone. I fed it again, and once again, the floating happened. Again 24h later it was no longer floating and so, thinking the problem was solved, I released it into the general tank.

In case the problem had been caused by overeating, I decided to only feed it two worms, see how that went, and repeat with two more a bit later. This seems to have helped because the ballast problem hasn’t come back (i.e. the fish does not float or have to make an effort to maintain its depth).

However, all is not well. I’ve noticed a couple of things:

First, the puffer no longer ‘rules’ the tank. It used to chase and nip at the tiger barbs, which were actually afraid of it. Now the barbs are nipping at its tail, and it’s the one now fleeing.

Second, its body behind the pectoral fins “seems” to be withering. I saw something similar in a Sailfin Molly years ago and towards the end, it couldn’t swim. For now the puffer swims fine, I may even be imagining this issue, but I think I remember its body being more round and ‘puffy’ rather than gaunt.

Third, all it wants is to be fed. In the past it would swim through the tank, exploring, chasing other fish, but rush to the top front when it thought I was going to feed it. Now it waits endlessly at the top front. I’ve fed it what I think is a reasonable amount of bloodworms, in light of the floating problem it had a few days ago after feeding.

Its appetite is as ravenous as always, maybe moreso.

If I hold the worms with a (clean) tweezers and pull them through the water, it swims at a sprint and gets the worms, so its swimming appears to be ok for the time being.
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Water details:
Tank: 21 gallons
Tankmates, 3 small tiger barbs, 4 small neons, 4 small kuhli loaches, 1 small black ghost knife fish (3 inches). All fish are young/small for their species.
pH: 7.6 (this is the ph of the city water, after removing chlorine/chloramine. I read that its best to use what I’ve got rather than using the ‘ph-down’ drops). pH is stable.
Temperature: 24.5C (76F) and stable
Salinity: none added.
Water Hardness: I don’t have a kit to measure but the city’s water supply is measured at 53ppm or 7.5grains/gallon which falls into the range of “hard” but not “very hard”.
Ammonia: zero
Tank setup about 2 months ago however filter media and some water was moved from prior tank to preserve biofilter/healthy bacteria/nitrogen cycle.
Fluval filter is well maintained and meant for a much larger tank. 10% water changes are done weekly.
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I’ve read on other sites that this is likely a parasite or worm infection, but I wanted some specific advice from puffer keepers. I’m about to put the Puffer in a separate tank to allow it to recover. These are the medications treatments that I have on hand for fish illnesses:

Aquarium Salt
Metronidazole
Mixture of Formalin and Malachite Green
Methylene Blue
Melafix
Various antibiotics


Thanks for any suggestions

[JRC3]

I don't see any info on your nitrates and that is more than likely the problem. You should be doing larger weekly water changes of 50% to keep them low. Your pH is perfectly fine and F8s actually prefer slightly higher PH. Also check your nitrites.

The biggest problem, maybe not your current problem, is the size of your tank and the other tankmates. Your F8 will need his own tank and the 21g would be a good size for him. So maybe it's time to get another much larger tank for your community fish because the loaches and especially the ghost knife are gonna get big...And probably eat the neons if they are left in there.

[purplecandle]

+1 that stocking list is crazy

What kind of test kit are you using for the ammonia?

I seriously doubt IPs are to blame here.

[einhorn]

The ammonia test kit is by ''Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc.". The results show as yellow without any hint of green.

I don't have a nitrite or nitrate test kit. I'd always assumed that if a tank is well cycled, not overpopulated, the fish not overfed, tank kept clean and good filtration and water changes then nitrites and nitrates were unlikely to be a problem.

I'll proceed to do the 50% water change recommended, and also pick up a nitrate/nitrate test kit.

The tankmate situation will be changed.

Other than that, are you guys pretty confident that what I've described doesn't come from some kind of infection? If not internal parasites, something else? I'd read that if the fish is eating voraciously and losing weight this was a good sign of parasites or worms.

Thanks again.

[JRC3]

...I'd always assumed that if a tank is well cycled, not overpopulated, the fish not overfed, tank kept clean and good filtration and water changes then nitrites and nitrates were unlikely to be a problem...

IMO you tank is overpopulated and you haven't been doing large enough water changes. I'm not grilling you btw, so don't take it the wrong way.


What do you have him in now?

Have you seen him poop, if so what did it look like? Good poop should be dark and nugget shapped and may or may not be hard. More importantly it shouldn't have any threadlike appearance. Here is a pic of newly purchased F8 I had that didn't make it past a week in QT. Look at his IP poop.



Have you seen anything like this?

[purplecandle]

JRC3..could you donate this pic on this thread..

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23890

it is a good pic

[jus85411]

I don't have a nitrite or nitrate test kit. I'd always assumed that if a tank is well cycled, not overpopulated, the fish not overfed, tank kept clean and good filtration and water changes then nitrites and nitrates were unlikely to be a problem.

thats the problem, your tank is very overpopulated. most fish stores will tell you the "inch of fish per gallon" BS rule. we were all fed that crap and most likely used it as a rule until we knew better. you have to take into consideration mostly the bioload that fish put out. not only waste is released into the water but horomones and other dissolved nutrients. you probably have a very high bioload in that tank but somehow your filtration can handle it if your showing 0 ammonia. the ammonia will turn to nitrite and the nitrite to nitrate. you might be doing water changes and all but you might not be taking out enough to compensate for the amount of nitrate that is being put into the tank from waste, etc which would result in climbing nitrates over time. dont ever take information here as someone bashing you, everyone is just here to help you out to enjoy the fish and make sure you can have the knowledge to provide your puff with the best home possible. were just here to help

[jus85411]

another thing that is a hard lesson learned with people once you learn the true ins and outs of fishkeeping is the "upgrade when necessary" saying. this should be taken with a grain of salt. if you have a 2 inch mbu puffer that needs 1000+ gallons as an adult and you put him temporarily in a 200 gallon thats fine up to a certain point because thats a ton of water volume to a smaller fish, but really there isnt a such thing as putting a GSP in a 5gallon until he gets bigger. sure he looks small and the tank empty still but the waste hes putting out is alot and the little amount of room stressing him out will be enough to possibly cause stunting

[JRC3]

JRC3..could you donate this pic on this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23890
it is a good pic

Yes. I have a few other pics of different poops from the same fish. It's funny because I tried my damndest to to get some good pics of my DPs taking a healthy dump because they were both going at the same time. But their poop just wouldn't show up in the pics. Isn't it funny how important poop is?

jus85411, I agree with your first post 100%. Not that I disagree with your second post.

[einhorn]

As of this morning I put him in a segregated tank away from the other fish. I expected that I'd get advice to start him on one or another medication and I didn't want to medicate the entire tank.

Its better this way for now anyway, even if no medication is required, because he won't need to hide from the barbs. I'll give the barbs to a friend. I can give the neons and loaches also, although the're pretty docile. The black ghost and the puffer get on surprising well, certainly better than my mom and dad ever did As babies, I don't think they're getting in each other's way...but could also separate them too.

I haven't seen any of his poop lately but there certainly wasn't the long stringy poop you showed in your photo. Now that he's in a hospital tank without any gravel I'll be able to see when/if he goes and confirm that its not stringy.

So for now, just keep him segregated? feed normally? perhaps daily 20% water changes ? Can any of the medications, or even a bit of aquarium salt be used to help or are they likely to do more harm than good?

I really appreciate all your comments. This fish, along with the black ghost, are the two most interesting fish I've ever kept.

[purplecandle]

The knife and puffer will not always get along..

But, really the knife needs another home...you have a 20 inch fish in a 20 gallon tank

Most people keep knifes in tanks 90 gallons or more..

And even if it is small now, you will easily stunt the fish and give it a premature death.

"I don't have a nitrite or nitrate test kit. I'd always assumed that if a tank is well cycled, not overpopulated, the fish not overfed, tank kept clean and good filtration and water changes then nitrites and nitrates were unlikely to be a problem."

Their are three steps to a nitrogen cycle that you must monitor..nitrates, nitrites and ammonia. It is a cycle..Bacteria converts ammonia into less toxic nitrates and nitrites...Ideally you would have 0 ammonia..0 nitrites and 10 or less nitrates..which indications that your cycle is working properly.

While not as toxic as straight ammonia, nitrates and nitrates present at inappropriate levels can kill fish quickly.

[Aquarist]

Nobody seem's to also be mentioning that the Puffer is brackish. And yes. That tank is extremely overstocked. The figure 8 fills up that tank to himself.

[Flutter]

Welcome to the forum

Looks like you're heading in the right direction. I got a F8 a few months ago and she's an awesome little fish. Very interactive and very spunky. She's very aggressive too but right now she's so small that it's just funny and cute. Anything that goes in the tank gets bitten, food, tongs, siphon, fingers, etc.

Give the fish a large enough tank, keep it alone, start making their water brackish, learn about feeding a puffer (and keep an eye out on the potential IP situation) and you should have a healthy little puffer for many years to come

Depending on where you are in Canada let me know if you need to rehome those loaches

[einhorn]

Hey Flutter thanks for the welcome. I'm in the French part

Regarding the brackish water, when I got this fish I read up on it for hours on the internet, over multiple multiple sites.

Some sites said that the figure 8 did best in a brackish environment. Others said that this was a common misconception, and whereas many other puffers, (the green spotted for example) came from a brackish environment, the figure 8 did not.

Having consulted about 10-15 sites, it seems that the the majority went along with the freshwater argument, and the minority went along with the brackish. So I never added salt.

I believe that this forum would probably be the best place to get a definitive answer. Is it agreed here that the figure 8 comes from a brackish environment and/or does best in a brackish environment? If so, I'll start to increase the salinity slowly. What is the recommendation (say teaspoons per US gallon?)

Thanks all

[Flutter]

Ohhhh. The French part... Half of my family is from the French part though I've only been there once.

I believe that GSPs are actually from a marine environment

The consensus here is that F8's do best in a low brackish tank. One of our scientifically inclined members (RTR) did his own study on F8 living conditions. He found that when kept in a FW environment they lived for about 10 years however they had many health problems over their lifespan. In low BW conditions they lived to over 15 years and I think the oldest one lived to be 18 years old. The ones kept in BW were also much healthier.

Unfortunately there isn't a way to answer your last question. How much salt you'll need depends on the brand and age of your salt.