Choosing filter for SAP

[pufferian]

Hi all after many thoughts I've finally decided to go for a 50gal SAP tank. This will house 3-4 SAPs. My next q's is which filter should I choose? I've read articles that said overfiltration is desired for these guys. So I guess I am looking at 8-10 times the original requirement. Can anyone suggest me canister filters that can do the job? Oh and co2 will be added if that matters.

Thanks in advance.

Angel

[robert_hollis]

Well, I'd suggest an Eheim canister filter. Don't get an Ecco, though. I've had problems with mine, and recently decided to upgrade to an Eheim Classic 2217. That's for a 55g with 3 SAPs and some other fish. Plenty of other brands are good, too.

-Rob

[Pufferpunk]

I'd also add an Aquaclear 110 to that.

[pufferian]

Thanks for both of the replies. So Eheim 2217 treats upto 160g and Aquaclear 110 treats upto 150g. So that's 310g in total. So 310/50 = 6.2 times the original tank size. Is this how you calculate the over-filtration? If so, is 6.2 enough?

[Pufferpunk]

Should be plenty.

[pufferian]

Thanks! So Eheim 2217 + Aquaclear 110 for filters. I am also planning to add some small fish like tetras in the tank also. Should still be plenty of filtration right?

Any insight on substrates? I am debating to go w/ sand or substrates like eco-complete or ADA. Which one does SAP prefer more?

[Pufferpunk]

That should be plenty for filtration. Keep in mind, sand needs to be stirred weekly--all of it--to prevent anaerobic (toxic) pockets of gas from forming. PITA in larger tanks. Best bet is smaller gravel. SAPs are not burrowers, so they really don't care. If you are trying for a planted look, there are some very good, recent threads on planning those.

[nmonks]

I know Jeni doesn't agree with on this, but adding a few Melanoides snails to tanks with sand effectively eliminates the need to clean the sand. These snails do a great job of this -- think of them as underwater earthworms -- and at the same time provide some food for your puffers (again, another thing Jeni will likely object to strongly).

The idea sandy substrates create pockets of toxic gas is largely erroneous. Yes, hydrogen sulphide can develop in them, but this oxidises so rapidly when it rises towards the surface of the substrate it simply won't accumulate to levels likely to harm your fish. This kind of anaerobic decay happens all the time in both ponds and in marine aquaria (it's why live rock breaks down nitrate to nitrogen gas) and no-one has kittens about it. But for some reason, the freshwater side of the hobby still seems to worry needlessly about it.

SAPs are not precisely indifferent to sandy substrates. At least some species have been reported to dig (e.g., in Baensch) though I confess none of my specimens have ever done so (that I have seen, at least). They do like to rest on the bottom though at night. If you have the option of using sand, then by all means do so.

Cheers, Neale

[pufferian]

Thanks for the replies. I actually have a tanganyikan tank that's of sand base and I purposely thrown in a few of the Trumpet snails in there. But I got TONS of them now... The population just simply can't be control. Plus I heard that their shells are too hard for puffers. Isn't that true? Will I be risking my puffers (well soon to be mine :p) if I add some trumpet snails into the tank?

I know Jeni doesn't agree with on this, but adding a few Melanoides snails to tanks with sand effectively eliminates the need to clean the sand. These snails do a great job of this -- think of them as underwater earthworms -- and at the same time provide some food for your puffers (again, another thing Jeni will likely object to strongly).

The idea sandy substrates create pockets of toxic gas is largely erroneous. Yes, hydrogen sulphide can develop in them, but this oxidises so rapidly when it rises towards the surface of the substrate it simply won't accumulate to levels likely to harm your fish. This kind of anaerobic decay happens all the time in both ponds and in marine aquaria (it's why live rock breaks down nitrate to nitrogen gas) and no-one has kittens about it. But for some reason, the freshwater side of the hobby still seems to worry needlessly about it.

SAPs are not precisely indifferent to sandy substrates. At least some species have been reported to dig (e.g., in Baensch) though I confess none of my specimens have ever done so (that I have seen, at least). They do like to rest on the bottom though at night. If you have the option of using sand, then by all means do so.

Cheers, Neale

[nmonks]

Snails convert organic matter into more snails; that much is true. However, as Montgomery Scott would say, they cannae break the laws o' physics. In other words, if there's nothing much for them to eat, they can't make baby snails.

Tanks that are difficult to clean, or else not cleaned that often, or stocked with messy fish that are overfed, can end up with big snail populations. But these tanks have deeper problems, and all the snails are doing is showing that there's a lot of organic matter in the tank that isn't being removed by the water changes or rinsed away when the mechanical filter media are being cleaned.

In and of themselves, snails are no more problematic in freshwater tanks than reef tanks. The fact marine aquarists don't fret over snail populations -- indeed, they use snails extensively as algae eaters -- reflects the higher standards of cleanliness in marine tanks compared to most freshwater tanks. A few Clea helena will keep Melanoides populations in check if they're a real problem, but otherwise just keeping the tank clean and removing (manually) excess numbers of snails should do the trick.

The question of whether Melanoides are too tough for puffers to eat is debated in some quarters. A very few aquarists have reported puffers with chipped teeth in tanks with Melanoides snails. They have then inferred [a] that the snails were the cause of the chipped teeth; and that chipped teeth are a bad thing. While it is possible that these two things may be true occasionally, it doesn't seem common. Mostly puffers have the good sense to test prey items before trying to crack them open, and since selecting food is critical to their survival in the wild, I'd imagine they're generally pretty good at it. Of the many and varied things pufferfish owners should be careful about, this issue seems pretty low down the list to me. Vitamin deficiency via overuse of thiaminase-rich foods like prawns and mussels is a much bigger issue, for example, or the introduction of parasites via wild-caught pond snails.

Cheers, Neale

[Pufferpunk]

I know Jeni doesn't agree with on this, but adding a few Melanoides snails to tanks with sand effectively eliminates the need to clean the sand. These snails do a great job of this -- think of them as underwater earthworms -- and at the same time provide some food for your puffers (again, another thing Jeni will likely object to strongly).

Only because of RTR's experiences of witnessing chipped teeth in his puffers. I actually do use them in my planted tank, since I don't want to disturb the roots in there. No puffers in that tank though.

In and of themselves, snails are no more problematic in freshwater tanks than reef tanks. The fact marine aquarists don't fret over snail populations -- indeed, they use snails extensively as algae eaters -- reflects the higher standards of cleanliness in marine tanks compared to most freshwater tanks.I

Hallelujah to that one!

[pufferian]

Thanks for the replies. This is very enlightening.
Is there any special tricks that you guys do to clean sand base? When I clean my Tang tank, I try to get as much of the waste out as possible. But once I am done and I plugged back in the powerhead and filter, I see all the waste coming out. I love to go with Sand base but it is so hard to vacuum!!!
I got tons of trumpet snails in my planted tank too. However when I vacuum, I didn't really see much waste that got suck out. Does regular substrate actually "absorb" the waste?
How deep of the sand bed or substrate do I need in either case?

[pufferian]

I have 50lbs sand for a 36"x18" footprint tank. Is that enough depth of sand bed?

[Pufferpunk]

1" of sand is all you need. If you are going to get plants, do not use sand. Excellent post about SAPs & plants from RTR.

[LilGreenPuffer]

About the hydrogen sulfide gas... It did happen to Jase and he had to tear down the marine tank, replace the sand, and put everything back together. Not pleasant with a marine puffer tank in a dorm. So, it can happen.

However, as Montgomery Scott would say, they cannae break the laws o' physics. In other words, if there's nothing much for them to eat, they can't make baby snails.

Sometimes I wonder if they really can. They're fiends, absolute fiends, and I think they have supernatural powers of reproduction.