Complicated post, point out flaws and criticize please!

[DracoRJC]

To start off, I recently got a pair of 1 and a half inch GSPs, and put them in my old 25 gallon freshwater tank, which used to contain an american eel (which I'm actually still trying to catch so I can get her out of there), 2 bullhead cats, and a green sunfish. It was up almost a year, so I figured it was 'cycled' enough (probably a novice mistake?), and went ahead and got the puffers and made all the necessary changes. Ive had them a few days, and I'm making my final pet store run tomorrow for a hydrometer to make sure my salinity is correct. I replaced the gravel with argonite sand, did some redecorating with new live plants, got a bunch of new filter cartridges, etc. I'm going to test ammonia and nitrates tomorrow, and I did test the pH. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I do remember checking around this website to make sure it was okay, and it was. I've been feeding frozen bloodworms, krill, and the occasional mealworm. My bullheads and eel were very small when I got them, so I fed them brine shrimp for a while, so I still have a lot of those left, and the puffers are very messy eaters with lots of leftovers laying in the sand, so I figured what better cleaner-upper than a dragon goby!

Would my puffers terrorize the dragon(s)? They were kept with a school of scats at the LFS, and none looked nipped or beat up, so I hope I have some of the gentler individuals. They also haven't hurt my American eel in the 6 days I've had them. Do you think this combo is a bad idea? The goby would get his own personal attention of course, but I think he could do some good in keeping the substrate clean. The tank will have more than its fair share of plants and decor and hides, so the puffers should be occupied (and well-fed) and the goby will have plenty of places to hide. Now I do know that GSPs get 6 inches and dragon gobies up to 2 feet. Could I keep the dragon(s) and puffers together as juveniles in the brackish tank for a few years until they reach adult size, then split them up? I'd keep the dragons brackish with mudskippers and/or Figure 8s or something, and the GSPs in a full (big)marine tank with a snowflake moray and/or radiated lionfish. I have read it takes about 2-4 years for GSPs and dragons to reach adult size, which would be a convienent time for me to seperate them.

This plan isn't really concrete, I only really thought of it yesterday after dreaming of dragons for several weeks, and I would love you guys to help me figure this out, because I am really a novice with fish! I am not a novice with animals however, they are my life and I will do anything in my power to make sure they are as happy and healthy as possible, and I research my butt off before getting anything, hence the several hours of reading I've done today and this forum post. This probably all sounds like a big jumble, but I would greatly appreciate any and all criticism!

[LilGreenPuffer]

I think it could be a problem in terms of conflict, but I think that the bigger problem is stocking. Two GSPs need 60g minimum, with more space for any tankmates. I think that the one doing the cleaning in this situation will have to be you. And you'll need a bigger tank, too - keeping even one in less than 30g will lead to stunting and a shortened lifespan. A goby that grows to a couple of feet will be stunted even more quickly.

A tank that's been up and running for a year is definitely cycled, so that wasn't a "novice mistake." However, there could still be a problem. How quickly did you raise the salinity? You should always have a hydrometer on hand at the time that you raise the salinity. If you raise it by more than .002 per week, you risk killing your nitrifying bacteria, and that would mean either a mini-cycle or a full cycle. If you raised it by more than .002, keep a *very* close eye on wter parameters.

Finally, only a few species of live plants will survive in brackish water. What kind did you get?

...And welcome to the forum!

[coldmachineUK]

As LilGreenPuffer says, there are some some issues with your stocking levels. Have you checked the 'pedia article on GSPs? If not, take a look, it's very informative: ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Brackish/T_Nigroviridis/

A single GSP requires a 30G tank, and you have two in a 25G along with an American eel which can grow to ~150cm (60") which shouldn't be in a tank that small itself. You've already noticed how messy they are when eating - adding a dragon goby to the mix is not a good idea; you need to reduce the bioload by putting them in a larger tank (more volume = greater dilution, as well as the issues of space requirements the GSP).

Besides the issue of space and pollution, your puffers may be playing with their tankmates nice now but the problem is that they typically get more grumpy the older they get (hey, who doesn't? ) and therefore more aggressive. In addition to that GSPs also require increasingly saline conditions - eventually doing best in full marine as adults (which you've correctly identified). You have them in freshwater now, but they require brackish water as juveniles even and your eel will certainly not appreciate the salt.

All in all my advice is not to run with the setup you currently have going, unfortunately. Sorry; I know how it feels when things aren't as expected, and advice is not what you were hoping to get, but you made the right call coming to TPF and checking so it's not too late to give your new pet puffers a happy life.

[DracoRJC]

I read the PufferPedia article, and pretty much the entire PufferPedia and every other fish site on the internet, its my new obession No shortage of reading material, beleive me!

And I gotcha, the puffers right now are about an inch long, maybe another half inch, and the eel is about the size of a pencil, and she'll be out of there tomorrow anyway. Basically, all the fish that have existed in this tank at any point are babies. I set aside some time to dig her out, which is a major pain!!! It takes a good 5 minutes to find her, and another 5 to catch her, which doesnt seem that long, but its difficult! So she'll be out of there anyway, one less poop machine! (Not that I even see her anyway...)
And I do have them in brackish water at the moment. At least it should be if I did the salt right (which is quite possible I didn't, working on it tomorrow). I do plan on putting them in a marine tank with some fellow predators when they become adults, I am quite aware of their requirements, I even grew up with one as a kid. The dragon gobies would stay brackish of course, with some fiddler crabs, mudskippers, or figure 8's as tankmates. I have it all planned out in my head, I'll figure out the specifics when it comes.

And this tank is for these guys as babies, I thought I made that clear, but it probably got lost in all the mumbo-jumbo. I LOVE my fish, theyre more than decoration, theyre like my kids, they deserve only the best. After so much time and exposure to animal husbandry, you kinda get the vibes like... You know an animals size and activity level, and with the size and dimensions of the tank, your mind just kinda processes it and you know its fine, you know what I mean? I grew up with pets all over mine and my best friends house, at least 100 pets (no exaggeration) between us in the 6 or 7 years before I moved. The puffers are fine at this size, but I know it wont last for long, tank size will not be an issue. As soon as they both hit the next growth increment, I'll probably just bump it straight up to a 75.

I think it could be a problem in terms of conflict, but I think that the bigger problem is stocking. Two GSPs need 60g minimum, with more space for any tankmates. I think that the one doing the cleaning in this situation will have to be you. And you'll need a bigger tank, too - keeping even one in less than 30g will lead to stunting and a shortened lifespan. A goby that grows to a couple of feet will be stunted even more quickly.

I probably raised it way too fast... I had a hunch that something would go wrong but I was in a huge rush with an impatient, hungry girlfriend waiting for me to finish the tank set-up before our date, so I was pretty much wingin' it... THAT was probably my 'novice mistake'. I think I just followed the directions on the box but cut the amount of salt in half... Which I guess would be fine for the puffers themselves anyway, at least for now, but it probably did screw up the bacteria, and I added some more a couple days ago, I dont even remember how much honestly... I feel stupid, I really need to keep track of these things... I'm heading to the pet store to check all the water parameters tomorrow.

The plants... I remember looking at a list of brackish aquarium plants, and I remember one was well-known for doing well in brackish, and the other was decent... I know that sounds like I just made that up to be lazy, but I didnt! I went to WetWebMedia's brackish plant section and it was alright. When I add more plants, I'll make sure they work, dont worry!

And thanks, Im loving the forum! Everyone here actually knows what theyre talking about! It gets better the more specific the forum is, I've found. Its a nice change of pace

[DracoRJC]

I read the PufferPedia article, and pretty much the entire PufferPedia and every other fish site on the internet, its my new obession No shortage of reading material, beleive me!

And I gotcha, the puffers right now are about an inch long, maybe another half inch, and the eel is about the size of a pencil, and she'll be out of there tomorrow anyway. Basically, all the fish that have existed in this tank at any point are babies. I set aside some time to dig her out, which is a major pain!!! It takes a good 5 minutes to find her, and another 5 to catch her, which doesnt seem that long, but its difficult! So she'll be out of there anyway, one less poop machine! (Not that I even see her anyway...)
And I do have them in brackish water at the moment. At least it should be if I did the salt right (which is quite possible I didn't, working on it tomorrow). I do plan on putting them in a marine tank with some fellow predators when they become adults, I am quite aware of their requirements, I even grew up with one as a kid. The dragon gobies would stay brackish of course, with some fiddler crabs, mudskippers, or figure 8's as tankmates. I have it all planned out in my head, I'll figure out the specifics when it comes.

And this tank is for these guys as babies, I thought I made that clear, but it probably got lost in all the mumbo-jumbo. I LOVE my fish, theyre more than decoration, theyre like my kids, they deserve only the best. After so much time and exposure to animal husbandry, you kinda get the vibes like... You know an animals size and activity level, and with the size and dimensions of the tank, your mind just kinda processes it and you know its fine, you know what I mean? I grew up with pets all over mine and my best friends house, at least 100 pets (no exaggeration) between us in the 6 or 7 years before I moved. The puffers are fine at this size, but I know it wont last for long, tank size will not be an issue. As soon as they both hit the next growth increment, I'll probably just bump it straight up to a 75.

I think it could be a problem in terms of conflict, but I think that the bigger problem is stocking. Two GSPs need 60g minimum, with more space for any tankmates. I think that the one doing the cleaning in this situation will have to be you. And you'll need a bigger tank, too - keeping even one in less than 30g will lead to stunting and a shortened lifespan. A goby that grows to a couple of feet will be stunted even more quickly.

I probably raised it way too fast... I had a hunch that something would go wrong but I was in a huge rush with an impatient, hungry girlfriend waiting for me to finish the tank set-up before our date, so I was pretty much wingin' it... THAT was probably my 'novice mistake'. I think I just followed the directions on the box but cut the amount of salt in half... Which I guess would be fine for the puffers themselves anyway, at least for now, but it probably did screw up the bacteria, and I added some more a couple days ago, I dont even remember how much honestly... I feel stupid, I really need to keep track of these things... I'm heading to the pet store to check all the water parameters tomorrow.

The plants... I remember looking at a list of brackish aquarium plants, and I remember one was well-known for doing well in brackish, and the other was decent... I know that sounds like I just made that up to be lazy, but I didnt! I went to WetWebMedia's brackish plant section and it was alright. When I add more plants, I'll make sure they work, dont worry!

And thanks, Im loving the forum! Everyone here actually knows what theyre talking about! It gets better the more specific the forum is, I've found. Its a nice change of pace

One more thing... About the gobies, assuming the water conditions, tank size, etc are correct for them and the GSPs, and everything else is good, will aggression be the one thing keeping me from putting them together? Again, it wouldnt be permanent, this tank will be more tailored for the dragons, since the GSPs tolerate a wider range of salinity, and they'll be going full marine anyway, most likely as soon as they outgrow the current tank. Would figure 8s fit the bill better?

On the goby topic, anyone know how fast dragons grow, or how long they live? And really, how big do they reasonably get? Ive seen a pic of a supposed 30-incher, and I hear many size estimates around the range of 1 foot. If they are healthy and well-fed (not fat), and have plenty of room, when can I expect them to reach full size, and how big would that reasonably be?

[coldmachineUK]

My honest advice is never to house fish according to their current requirements, but to plan long-term for their adult lives. Fish spend only a portion of their lives as juveniles, and a far longer period as fully grown adults.

It sounds, though, like you're sure of what you're doing.

[LilGreenPuffer]

I don't know too much about gobies... sorry!