Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

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Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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newbiepuff
Puffer Fry
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by newbiepuff »

Hi there,

Just wondering if there is anything else we can do for our last figure8 puffer.

Our last 1" figure 8 is lethargic and has hardly any colour.Stomach is
not concaved.

Last night it nearly passed
layed onto the filter but managed to save it by putting in bucket with airstone,
2 tablespoon marine salts and a few drops of melafix.

Today we dosed the whole 55g tank with melafix.Figure 8 is
in by himself.

We had 3 figure 8s but 2 passed for unknown reasons.

We also had bought a few figure 8s in Xmas but found out later they were ceylons.

They all passed in a few days.


Our water parameters are :

0 Amm
0 Nitrite
5-10 Nitrate

1.003 Salinity (Increasing .002 each week)

2x Fluval 405 Internals & 1x Tetra Tec 1200 External Airstone

50% water changes 2x a week & 80% Change once a month

10 yr plus tank with kois,goldfish, discus, crayfish, mollies etc kept
at seperate times before.


We are not sure why 5/6 puffers have died and the last one seems
to be needing alot of help just to maintain it with daily water change,
bucket treatment etc

Is there anything else we can do to try save it ???


Image
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recombinantrider
Green Spotted Puffer
Posts: 386
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My Puffers: Tetraodon nigroviridis (GSP)
Takifugu ocellatus (Fugu puffer)
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by recombinantrider »

Is the pH normal? Sometimes the tap water's pH fluctuate quite a bit.
When's the last time he ate?
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newbiepuff
Puffer Fry
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by newbiepuff »

recombinantrider wrote:Is the pH normal? Sometimes the tap water's pH fluctuate quite a bit.
When's the last time he ate?

Thanks for the quick reply.

He ate on Friday night some bloodworms , got his belly full. Tried to feed
some muscle but only took a bite or two.

Ph in tank is 7.8.

Would the coral sand substrate and several coral rocks not buffer the Ph?
Also we add 1x TBS epsom salts + 1 1/2 TBS of Instant ocean marine salt to each
2.5g bucket of fresh water.

The strange thing is we have even kept discus fish at one time and had no idea
that we were keeping them in the wrong water parameters in high ph and also
nitrates were 80 at the time by overstocking yet they were active and always hungry
and never caught any illnesses. Maybe its bad luck for the 2nd time in buying
the puffers :S
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Iliveinazoo
Fahaka Puffer
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:09 am
Gender: Male
My Puffers: 1xFigure 8
Location (country): UK
Location: Southampton

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by Iliveinazoo »

You don't really need to go any higher than 1.003 (fluctuate between 1.003 and 1.005).

Could you be overfeeding? Puffers can struggle to get enough oxygen if they've had a lot to eat.

it may be a silly question but was the tank empty for a while before you added the last lot of puffers? with nothing to feed the bacteria in the filter it would have died off so you may be going through a cycle.

The coral substrate will buffer the PH.
Are you adding extra magnesium for plants?
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newbiepuff
Puffer Fry
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by newbiepuff »

Iliveinazoo wrote:You don't really need to go any higher than 1.003 (fluctuate between 1.003 and 1.005).

Could you be overfeeding? Puffers can struggle to get enough oxygen if they've had a lot to eat.

it may be a silly question but was the tank empty for a while before you added the last lot of puffers? with nothing to feed the bacteria in the filter it would have died off so you may be going through a cycle.

The coral substrate will buffer the PH.
Are you adding extra magnesium for plants?

Hi Iliveinazoo,

Nice name btw :D

Negative for overfeeding as all the puffers we have bought have
had a poor appetite except 1 small ceylon who ate like a beast
but passed as well ...

Tank has always had fish in and we closely monitor the water chemistry with
close to perfect readings which makes it more confusing for us :S

The extra magnesium from epsom salts was to increase KH to around 7-9.
It is 9 right now so we will stop with the epsom salts.

He seems to be swimming abit more right now so hopefully its a good sign.

Thanks for your advice :)
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By_a_coo
Green Spotted Puffer
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:14 pm
Gender: Male
My Puffers: 1 X GSP
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Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by By_a_coo »

Did you feed him with any live food lately? Did you test the tap water to check parameters?
Fernando
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marksrush
Fahaka Puffer
Posts: 856
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:10 pm
Gender: Male
My Puffers: One GSP.
Location (country): USA
Location: Raymore, Missouri USA

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by marksrush »

I can't see how that big of a dose of Epsom salts could be good for the puffers. Even when it's used to treat them for constipation, the dose is only 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Have you been doing this all along, or just lately in an attempt to treat your fish?
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Dadof4
Tech Team
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Gender: Male
My Puffers: 1 GSP (Microfiche) RIP, 1 Monotrete Turgidus (Leon) in a 30gal. 1 Monotrete suvattii in a 40 gal FW. 120 gallon BW with 3 juvenile Dragon Gobies (so cool). 55 gal with a 2" GSP named Hank. 180 gallon being set up for a Fahaka in the next few months!
Location (country): United States
Location: North Wisconsin

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by Dadof4 »

marksrush wrote:I can't see how that big of a dose of Epsom salts could be good for the puffers. Even when it's used to treat them for constipation, the dose is only 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Have you been doing this all along, or just lately in an attempt to treat your fish?
I agree with this, that's a huge dose. The marine salt has magnesium in it and you may be overdosing with it. If you're worried about pH and kH I would continue with the crushed coral (number one choice) or try using a calcium reactor (last choice).
"Darwin swings...annnnnnd a miss. Boy Jim, Chuck's suffered at the plate tonight. He's 0 for 3 and I'm not sure he's recovered from that shoulder pull a few weeks ago. I'll bet the front office is re-thinking that contract."
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newbiepuff
Puffer Fry
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by newbiepuff »

By_a_coo wrote:Did you feed him with any live food lately? Did you test the tap water to check parameters?

Hi By_a_coo,

Havent fed any live food and TDS reading on tap atm is 30 which is pretty good for us.

We use mostly RO DI water mixed with little tap treated with Prime.
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newbiepuff
Puffer Fry
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by newbiepuff »

marksrush wrote:I can't see how that big of a dose of Epsom salts could be good for the puffers. Even when it's used to treat them for constipation, the dose is only 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Have you been doing this all along, or just lately in an attempt to treat your fish?

Hi marksrush,

Was dosing the tank with epsom salts for the cichlids and havent done
so recently when the puffers were in.

Today the f8 seems to be hiding under a rock and does not react.

We have no idea what to do now but just be patient and see if he livens up ... :S

We have always wanted to keep puffers but our experiences have been unlucky and bad,
hopefully he makes it.
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Iliveinazoo
Fahaka Puffer
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:09 am
Gender: Male
My Puffers: 1xFigure 8
Location (country): UK
Location: Southampton

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by Iliveinazoo »

KH is dependant on the relationship between magnesium and calcium (sea water has the ratio 3:1). I add 1 1/2 table spoons of epsom salt and 1/2 table spoon of calcium sulphate each water change (approximately 10 USG) into my planted figure 8 puffer tank, once a month I add 1/2 tablespoon of potassium carbonate - i also use RO water but the only reason that I dose regularly is to keep the plants healthy.

You are currently running just above freshwater SG so your KH should only be marginally above freshwater levels. If you aren't maintaining plants then the marine salt and tap water that you are cutting the RO with will probably provide adequate hardness. I think people worry a bit too much about PH and hardness.

If all of your levels are fine now then your figure 8 may just be in a bad mood, every now and then mine hide - does he have plenty of stuff to explore?
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newbiepuff
Puffer Fry
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by newbiepuff »

Iliveinazoo wrote:KH is dependant on the relationship between magnesium and calcium (sea water has the ratio 3:1). I add 1 1/2 table spoons of epsom salt and 1/2 table spoon of calcium sulphate each water change (approximately 10 USG) into my planted figure 8 puffer tank, once a month I add 1/2 tablespoon of potassium carbonate - i also use RO water but the only reason that I dose regularly is to keep the plants healthy.

You are currently running just above freshwater SG so your KH should only be marginally above freshwater levels. If you aren't maintaining plants then the marine salt and tap water that you are cutting the RO with will probably provide adequate hardness. I think people worry a bit too much about PH and hardness.

If all of your levels are fine now then your figure 8 may just be in a bad mood, every now and then mine hide - does he have plenty of stuff to explore?

Thank you Iliveinzoo for explaining this :)

Yep the 55G is stacked with tall 18" realistic plants and lots of coral rocks made
into little caves for the lil guy to explore.

He may be in bad mood that he isnt in the ocean/river but surely 55g fully
stacked with plants, rocks, good water parameters, 20x over filteration, 2x week
water changes, for the lil 1" f8 to explore is at least healthy for him to live in ??

Sorry, just frustating that 5 out of 6 puffers have died and we have done
everything to make sure the puffs are happy ...
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newbiepuff
Puffer Fry
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by newbiepuff »

Today the lil F8 seems to have trouble swimming ..its kind of wagging its tail
alot and bumping into stuff , what could this be ?? It does even when
i turn of both the internals ... and it does have slightly nipped fins.
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By_a_coo
Green Spotted Puffer
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:14 pm
Gender: Male
My Puffers: 1 X GSP
Location (country): Brazil
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by By_a_coo »

I wish everything end well!
Fernando
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newbiepuff
Puffer Fry
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Re: Figure 8 poor colouring and lethargic

Post by newbiepuff »

Dont think hes gonna make it ... did saltwater dip and still not much movement
apart from mouth.

Is it best to put it out its misery? :S
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