new to puffers - some advice

[maw]

Hi Guys,

New to the forum and puffers but have keep cichlids etc before.

I have bought two stars n stripes puffers and they are currently in a 3'x20"x20" tank filter by an Ehiem 4417. Fine coral stand, piece or coral and some small terracotta pots. Ph 7+, 1.001. The lfs guy advised me to setup a brackish tank and as brackish and FW puffer are hard to find here in Sydney, I could not resist.

The puffers are eating fine - brine shrimp/ black worms - and seem to have survived the move from the LFS.

A few questions:
1. whats the best decor as I've noticed some agression?
2. if i purchase some live rock, will it be ok to place it into my tank w/out preparing it ie soaking in FW first - will the good bacteria die off and pollute the tank due to reduced salinity levels?
3. the LFS guy advised that the puffer is brackish, is this so?
4. I bought some red ramshore snails and they died in my tank...is this due to the salinity? What FW snails live in the brackish conditions? I crushed the dead snails and the puffer seemed to have ate them

Thanks for all you help and very sorry for the questions.
Michael

[Myaj]

I *thought* stars and stripes puffers were full marine puffers that get quite large, requiring a tank around the 120 mark or larger each.. But I don't know my marine puffers very well so I could be wrong. And the marine puffers link to info isn't up yet, with the site under construction..

So I'm not sure what to tell you about their care, etc, but hopefully others will join in soon. In general, most puffers are aggressive and need lots of territories, created by caves and plants (fake or real, in your case, probabaly fake due to salinity). Even then, they often don't co-exist well, and if I am correct about the size yours will grow to, you won't have enough room for both. One, maybe, but that tank is only about 60 US gallons... Again, I could be wrong on the size.

Can you post some pictures of your puffers so we can get a positive identificatiion?

As far as the live rock, yes, if your salinity really is at 1.001 (you sure its not 1.010?), the bacteria on the live rock will die and not only will it no longer be "live" rock, it will pollute the tank. I am not sure what salinity you have to be up to before you can begin to use live rock and not have die off, but I think its around 1.017 or 1.018...

[Bred]

Myaj is right, Stars and Stripes puffers are marine puffers and require full marine conditions. They do grow quite large (12-18 inches) and require at least 100 gallons per specimen. I have no information on their aggression towards conspecifics.

I agree a photo is needed for positive ID, but in the event that they are true Stars and Stripes, your setup is liable to be incompatible even in the short run... You'll be wanting to move to full SW conditions, so (if you don't already have these,) lay your hands on a hydrometer, bucket of synthetic marine salt mix, and a package or two of saltwater biospira as the nitrifying bacteria in your tank will not survive a rapid shift. And I'm sorry to say, but you might want to aquaint yourself with the idea of returning one or both of them to the store until you can think through your decision.

Marine puffer tanks need a high-quality protein skimmer, exceptional biological filtration (ideally with use of Live Rock), and frequent water changes. For many of us this is simply beyond our price range.

The first rule about keeping puffers is that stores rarely provide accurate information. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. See if you can post a pic ASAP and we'll know everything for sure. Alternatively, see if your puffs look anything like these: http://images.google.com/images?q=aroth ... a=N&tab=wi

[Bred]

Now that that's out of the way, to answer your other questions:

1. Decor will come in the form of live rock and macro algae, if you want to be as natural as possible.
2. Live rock will quickly become dead rock in salinities below ~1.020. See this Wet Web Media FAQ for more info, and read up on cured versus uncured Live Rock.
3. See previous post.
4. You are correct, FW snails will not last in salt water. I am not totally sure about the effects of feeding FW snails to SW fish, so another member will have to answer you there. SW snails do exist, though. Cruncy alternatives include cockles, crabs, clams, and pretty much any other mollusks / crustaceans.

Hope this helps!
Welcome to the forum, btw ... Fire away with the questions!

[maw]

Thanks you all for your quick replys...I'm disappointed with the LFS advice because I've grown attached to the little buggers.

The salinity is 1.010, I've got the hydrometer and salt, but fall short of the rest...like I say, I jumped to the fact that the puffers were brackish. Brackish Puffers let alone FW ones, here, down under are very rare indeed.

The twos guys are small, barely an inch, brownish, stripes near the mouth broken to dots towards the rear - so I'm quite sure its a stars n stripes puffer however the google pics are different - maybe adult pics.

Like I say eating well and very active/curious...I'll post a pic and then go from there. The LFS where i bought it advised that it came from fresh waters of Queensland, however the wholesaler had them in brackish, thus the LFS replicated the conditions.

[Pufferpunk]

This is being moved to the Marine Puffer Forum, as these are SW fish.

[puffergeek]

Like I say eating well and very active/curious...I'll post a pic and then go from there. The LFS where i bought it advised that it came from fresh waters of Queensland, however the wholesaler had them in brackish, thus the LFS replicated the conditions.

It was a good move on the part of the LFS to copy the SG of the wholesaler and for you to do the same. I don't know how long it would be healthy to keep them in brackish water, but you can start to move the SG up by .002 each week until you get to full marine (without totally wiping out your bio-filter).

Those puffs do get very large, but I know what you mean about getting attached quick; they are cuties. They are going to need a *lot* of tank space.

[trekenk]

You are so right puffer geek they do get large. I myself did not know what I was getting into when I got my Stars and Stripes as far as the size went. Started out at a 54gl to a 90 and then 120 all within a couple of years and that was only for one of them, I cannot imagine two! So be prepared because you will get attached to them I guarantee that and to be fair to the fish you have to accommodate their needs. It all adds up to a huge tank and a lots of water changes, I know from experience.

[wolfgang270]

The LFS that I frequent is actually a SW and FW wholesale store. They frequently have Stars and Stripes in there that are well over a foot. I only wish i had space for a tank to house a fish that large.

[maw]

Ok chaps, I'll post a pic soon, just got to download from my camera.

Are there any Ossie members here? If so, can you point me to LFS that sells brackish/FW puffers. If my puffers are indeed SnS, then I'll give them back *regretfully*

-> This site gives different data:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/faqs/brackish/FAQ7.shtml

I'm finding that marine puffers are readily avaialble at most LFS here, are there any marine puffers that I can get away with at 1.010 levels and still ok in a 3'x20"?

[Pufferpunk]

All marine puffers must be kept in marine conditions.

[Bred]

Yeah... What PP said. That source you've cited seems to be fudging the point; these are true marine species and as such will fare better in salinities greater than 1.010--insofar as the salinity is as close to marine conditions as possible.

The good news is there are many freshwater and brackish water puffers that are more apt to fit your housing conditions. A little patience may be required, but keep in mind that now is the time for these seasonal imports and you will no doubt be seeing more of them in the months to come.

Tetraodontae as a family share many common traits -- their cuteness and ability to endear themselves to their owners being the foremost of all. There are many other species to explore, and I assure you they are all fantastic!

Returning the fish (with a word of caution!) to the fish store is a very difficult but ultimately honourable course of action. Judging by your willingness to do so, I would say the puffer world needs more keepers like you!


To answer your question, I suggest looking into Figure 8 puffers (Tetraodon biocellatus)... You would probably be able to fit several of them in the tank size you've mentioned, with a visually complex environment. They're beautiful, iridescent fish, with much personality. See the puffer list for further info, and feel free to ask questions in the brackish section of this forum.

Please let us know how it goes!

[trekenk]

Well Maw I went and checked out that link you left above. It started off like this .....Many of the marine puffers range into brackish waters, especially when young. The dog face puffer (Arothron hispidus), also known as the stars and stripes puffer, is one of the hardiest and a very suitable aquarium fish. Oh boy is that information wrong. A dog face and a stars and stripes are not anywhere never the same, I can't believe they even said that. Lucky you found the Puffer Forum some great well educated (from experience) people up here.

[Pamela]

Have you decided what you're gonna do? That's a tough one, and is gonna be determined mainly by your income, available free time and space in your home.
Rather than take one back to the shop....do people ever donate their fish to public aquariums? I'm asking cos when we were at a big aquarium in Hampshire (Old, not New!), there was a huge porc with just one eye - the other looked like it'd been bitten out a long time back. I wondered whether he'd been in a domestic tank and had got too much for his owner and tankmate and had been moved to the massive plexiglass tunnelled tank he was in.
Surely that's a better option for the fish rather than taking his chances at the lfs again.
Although I guess the lfs, not seeing any returned fish, assumes they're profitable and that their advice to buyers is right.
Pami.