South American Puffer 'rolling'.

[TeePuff]

Got 3 of these little chaps in a 100L fully cycled, planted tank. I had two in there initially, on died the morning after I got them home; I went back and got 2 more. One is behaving quite strangely... I can only describe it as 'rolling'. Like, barrel rolling. Otherwise, he looks OK -- good colours, tail fanning out (ie. not clamped) etc. He was eating last night. Every time he floats passed the filter intake, he gets stuck to it.

Water parameters: - pH = 6.8; Ammonia = 0; Nitrite = 0; Nitrate = approx. 20. Checked the GH and KH too, just in case ( 9 and 6 respectively). I checked because I did a 25% water change and cleaned the tank two days ago, using RO, and thought perhaps I didn't add the correct amount of buffer or something stupid like that (FTR, I use Tropic Marin Triple-Buffer -- I know it's a marine product, but it was recommended to me as the best buffer I could use in conjunction with RO. I also add EasyBalance and Bacterlife as part of my water change routine.

I've had them less than a month -- they're not my first puffs, and knowing they're just about the easiest fellows to keep... I'm a little lost. Thought I'd pick some of your experienced brains.

Cheers in advance!

(I'm also new here, hello! Been lurking for a while and finally took the plunge so to speak.)

[coldmachineUK]

Welcome to TPF!

Well your params are ok so it doesn't sound like there's a problem there. Though, how come you need to buffer? You're best using a longer-term solution to it than a chemical addition, if you want to buffer pH. Adding a coral substrate will buffer naturally to alkaline, and you could add peat to your filter or add wood to the tank for the opposite effect.
Also, RO water lacks mineral content which I've heard elsewhere can be beneficial: what's wrong with good old tap water?

You also shouldn't have to add EasyBalance or Bacterlife: if your tank is stable and your params are fine, there oughtn't to be a problem.

In short: I'm not sure why you're adding all this 'stuff' to the tank.

On to the puffs problem though: could be a swim bladder problem. Try adding some cooked garden peas, shelled, into the tank and coax them in to eating them (easier said than done). They've been known to help.
Could also be your puff has inhaled air...the semi-floating/being carried by the current/barrel-rolling and being stuck to the filter intake all suggest that might be the cause.

So, that's my $0.02. You could try the peas. Failing that, you may need to 'burp' your puffer

[Nick]

Easybalance has denitrifiers which can consume oxygen from the water, larger volume water changes are a much better alternative. The product is useful if you will be gone a long time and can't rely on anyone to change water for you, but I'd reconsider it's use as part of a routine.

[TeePuff]

Welcome to TPF!

Hey!

... RO water lacks mineral content which I've heard elsewhere can be beneficial: what's wrong with good old tap water?

The trouble with the tap water in my area is its extremely hard (I knew even before I began keeping fish because of all the washing powder I got through!). I've had trouble controlling the parameters before, and was worried about it affecting the puffs. My dwarfs and dragons seem fine with the way I've been doing things. That's why I think (and hope) it might be something other than the water. I'd hate to think I'd done something to cause this.

You also shouldn't have to add EasyBalance or Bacterlife: if your tank is stable and your params are fine, there oughtn't to be a problem.

In short: I'm not sure why you're adding all this 'stuff' to the tank.

I add EasyBalance to my community tank to reduce the need for huge water changes. I have read that not everyone approves of it. I didn't think it could do any harm, and liked the fact that it apparently helps reduce nitrates in the water.

So, it's really not necessary to add Bacterlife weekly as it suggests on the bottle? (unsuprisingly, eh?) Perhaps I'm being overly cautious -- perhaps a little too trusting of products and the people selling them, and, yes, perhaps dumping products in the tanks unnecssarily.

On to the puffs problem though: could be a swim bladder problem. Try adding some cooked garden peas, shelled, into the tank and coax them in to eating them (easier said than done). They've been known to help.

Ooh, that I'd like to see. I'll give it a try. I've already started a course of eSha 2000 to the tank in case it's an infection of some kind. That stuff saved my ceylon when they developed a nasty case or fungus in the days after I bought them home.

Could also be your puff has inhaled air...the semi-floating/being carried by the current/barrel-rolling and being stuck to the filter intake all suggest that might be the cause.

So, that's my $0.02. You could try the peas. Failing that, you may need to 'burp' your puffer

This did occur to me, but I was a little hesitant about how I would go about relieving the puff of his trapped wind. Any tips?

And thanks!

[TeePuff]

Easybalance has denitrifiers which can consume oxygen from the water, larger volume water changes are a much better alternative. The product is useful if you will be gone a long time and can't rely on anyone to change water for you, but I'd reconsider it's use as part of a routine.

I have an air curtain in the SAP tank, but I will stop using EasyBalance in my puff tanks. I already do large water changes so, yeah, I probably don't need it, and shouldn't use it even 'in case' as I have been.

Thanks.

[t1gerbee]

are all your puffers in RO? I live in hertfordshire and have stupidly hard water, (on the chiltern ridge, so all water runs through chalk hills) yet all my puffers (including my marines) are in dechlorinated tap water... and all have been fine for the last year and a half....

I suspect its all the additives, chemicals etc that are causing your fish problems... just start slowly changing out to tap water..

you could be swinging your pH with all the buffering.. and puffers are very sensitive to chemicals/meds...


alternatively, it's your supplier...


You have ALOT of puffers for someone new to the site! Welcome...

[TeePuff]

are all your puffers in RO? I live in hertfordshire and have stupidly hard water, (on the chiltern ridge, so all water runs through chalk hills) yet all my puffers (including my marines) are in dechlorinated tap water... and all have been fine for the last year and a half....

Thing is, I've just recently started using RO (pre-SAPs). And yeah, they all get the same treatment ATM. Seemed like a good idea from what I'd read/discussed etc. and more convenient. Will be reverting back to my old habits I think.

I suspect its all the additives, chemicals etc that are causing your fish problems... just start slowly changing out to tap water..

Damn it.

you could be swinging your pH with all the buffering.. and puffers are very sensitive to chemicals/meds...

Not ever noticed a problem, and check all parameters religiously, but do worry about this happening. The triple buffer is very good, apparently.

alternatively, it's your supplier...

That's always the worry. I did have one die within 36 hours, but these have been buzzing around like little head prefects until today, and just this one seems to be in trouble.

You have ALOT of puffers for someone new to the site! Welcome...

Thanks. It all started with one dwarf puffer bought on a whim for my community tank!

[riggers]

RO water (as I have been informed) is really best for top ups after water has evaporated because the only thing that has evaporated is pure water, which is what RO water is. But when you take out water with all the little minerals, and goodness knows what else, and replace it with RO water, you have essentially lost all those little goodies. Thanks to chubber for that little nugget of information.

[TeePuff]

RO water (as I have been informed) is really best for top ups after water has evaporated because the only thing that has evaporated is pure water, which is what RO water is. But when you take out water with all the little minerals, and goodness knows what else, and replace it with RO water, you have essentially lost all those little goodies. Thanks to chubber for that little nugget of information.

Duly noted. It's kind of shaming to have to learn these things possibly at the expense of my fish.

I keep checking on the little chap, and he doesn't seem better. He's still swimming/rolling around, seemingly helpless, but whenever I nudge him, he reacts by swimming away. It reminds of the time I was on a school trip kayaking on a lake... the current kept spinning me round, and I either had to paddle furiously against it, or go with it, which turned out to be much less tiring, even if I did look a fool. Maybe this guy just needs better oars.

[Idontknow]

Just a question because I am new to all of this too. How hard is your tap water?

According to animal-world.com, the South American Puffer can live in wide range of water hardness of 5 -15 dH (89.5 - 268.5 ppm gH/kH). Which is soft to hard. Of course, I have no experience in this but I hope to own some SAPs some day, so I'd like to know if this is correct or not.

[Pufferpunk]

Check out the "Help! My puffer is airfilled!" article in our Library.

[TeePuff]

Just a question because I am new to all of this too. How hard is your tap water?

According to animal-world.com, the South American Puffer can live in wide range of water hardness of 5 -15 dH (89.5 - 268.5 ppm gH/kH). Which is soft to hard. Of course, I have no experience in this but I hope to own some SAPs some day, so I'd like to know if this is correct or not.

Around 18°gH and pH 7.6/7.8. I was advised to keep the puffs in around 5-10 and pH neutral.

He's still the same this morning, if a little less resistant when I handle him. Tried Pufferpunk's suggestion above and not sure if that's the issue. All* of my puffers (excluding the dragons which hug the sand, as it their way) love to bite the surface of the water, so I keep their tank topped up as much as possible to try to prevent them swallow air... could still have happened, but he didn't seem inflated at all (slightly peeved that I was poking him, though!).

Did a water chance. Will see if that helps.

*EDIT to say: some, not all do this occasionally, even the DPs.

[t1gerbee]

'love to bite the surface of the water' ?

As in gasping?

This is difficult because you are clearly an advanced fishkeeper so i'm throwing thing out there that may be odvious to you... but worth it if it helps solve it i guess... sorry if it comes across as patronising through...

are the puffers breathing fast, surface hanging is a sign of lack of oxygen...

you keep the tank topped up to try and stop them gulping air.. does that mean you have the water line very close to a lid of some sort? Why would having a tank topped up stop them biting the surface?

There is something about marines and airflow across the tank, and it is not advised to have a closed lid with a high waterline as it stops airflow and massively increases the humidity of the tank, causing problems...

No idea, and a stab in the dark, but could be playing a part in this... ?

[TeePuff]

'love to bite the surface of the water' ?

As in gasping?

This is difficult because you are clearly an advanced fishkeeper so i'm throwing thing out there that may be odvious to you... but worth it if it helps solve it i guess... sorry if it comes across as patronising through...

are the puffers breathing fast, surface hanging is a sign of lack of oxygen...

you keep the tank topped up to try and stop them gulping air.. does that mean you have the water line very close to a lid of some sort? Why would having a tank topped up stop them biting the surface?

There is something about marines and airflow across the tank, and it is not advised to have a closed lid with a high waterline as it stops airflow and massively increases the humidity of the tank, causing problems...

No idea, and a stab in the dark, but could be playing a part in this... ?

Not so advanced, really. I clearly have things to learn. And it's not patronising in the least to offer advice when I asked for it! Thanks for it, though I don't think that's it either... but I will give the airflow thing some more thought, because I do get a lot of evaporation happening.

I was thinking of my Ceylon puffs when I wrote that bit -- they do like to make a splash (it really looks like they're biting at the air) at the surface now and then. They don't hang at the surface (except before feeding time!), though they do tend to stick in the mid-upper part of the tank when active. I have air curtains/stones my puff tanks to try to aerate as much as possible, knowing puffs especially appreciate it, and of course it helps with the water quality. I have a crown lid on their tank with part of the lid usually open, so even with the water topped up, there's room, and with most tanks I've kept, there's always space for air flow. I only meant that I keep the water line high to keep them from swimming into the air (and 'biting' it), as I've observed them do before. One of them loves play in the outflow of the filter, seemingly chasing the current.

One of my SAPs (not the one behaving strangely) sticks to the mid-upper part too, and has broken the surface a couple of times that I've seen (again at feeding time/when excited). The other (again, not the ill one) sticks more to the bottom. They're in a Juwel tank, and I try to keep it at the max mark.

The DPs are kept in a Juwel too, and I have seen them get to the surface too. But yeah, I shouldn't have typed 'all'. It's been a while since I used a forum and have to remember exaggeration and not always making things clear doesn't help!

The Ceylon are definitely the brightest fish I keep. They're absolutely enchanting!

[t1gerbee]

I love my ceylon too.

Anything at all noticeable on the ill SAP.. bumps, fluffy bits... anything?