PLEASE HELP! Sick, Lethargic CheliFish.....

[PufferPuck30]

Hello.....

New to the site, although I've been lurking for some time, now.

I've had a GSP for just over 2 weeks now. Cheli is about 1.5" long, and resides, (for now), in a 20g tank. SG is at 1.008, Nitrates 0, Nitrites 0, pH 8.1, alkilinity is "High".

He customarily has a HUGE appetite, and is personable and very inquisitive. Almost hyperactive.

I did a ~15% water change yesterday. Since then, he's been lethargic. He's eating, but not with the same gusto he usually displays.

I woke this morning to find him "bumping" into things. He looked generally disoriented. I gave him his normal breakfast of bloodworms, and he seemed to perk up.

Off to work I went.

I'm very concerned as now my little guy appears to have one gill swollen shut, and the corresponding fin, while he CAN use it, he appears to prefer not to. His color is NOT good, as he appears to be more yellowish green than green, whereas before he was a bright, poison green, and he's got some "greying" on his sides. He still seems a bit disoriented and "dizzy".

I've treated his tank with a liquid buffer to raise the pH, and some water conditioner, "just in case."

On a side note.....

He's been in water with an SG of 1.005 since I got him.....

Could the change in salinity be having this effect?

And why is his entire right side/gill swollen?

Anyone?

Thanks in advance for the help....

[spoot]

Any ammonia in the tank? Sounds very symptomatic of poor water conditions. How was the tank cycled?

I've had a GSP for just over 2 weeks now. Cheli is about 1.5" long, and resides, (for now), in a 20g tank. SG is at 1.008, Nitrates 0, Nitrites 0, pH 8.1, alkilinity is "High".

...

He's been in water with an SG of 1.005 since I got him.....

So the water was 1.005 and you just recently increased it to 1.008? Could be a mini cycle.

I've treated his tank with a liquid buffer to raise the pH, and some water conditioner, "just in case."

Why did you need to raise the pH? large pH swings are harmful to fish.

[PufferPuck30]

Good Morning, and thanks for the response.

No. No ammonia in the tank. Everything is reading normal. As stated, I just completed a 15% water change.

The tank was cycled with Bio-Spira.

Perhaps I've raised the SG too quickly, and have killed off bacteria? The "Mini-cycle" you refer to?

The pH in the tank has been at 8.4 from day one. After the water change, it dipped to 7.9. I considered that a large swing, so I treated the tank with the liquid buffer in an attempt to gently raise it back up to it's original 8.4. At the time of the post last night, I'd raised it throughout the day from 7.9, to 8.1. That's where it currently stands.

Water temperature is at 82 degrees. He has 5 ghost shrimp as tank-mates. Other than that, he's all on his lonesome. And that's the way he likes it.

He ate his normal portion of bood worms for dinner last night, along with 3 small ramshorn snails.

This morning he's "perky". HUNGRY, too.

His color's a bit better, but still not where it should be. And while he's using that right dorsal(?) fin, his gill on that side is still swollen shut.

Gill flukes, perhaps?

[PufferPuck30]

By the way....

His water DOES seem a bit cloudy, but that could just be me.

I've hesitated to do a large scale water change in an attempt to get it crystal clear, as the last thing I want to do is stress the poor little guy.

I'm looking for advice from someone with more experience. Everyone here seems to know whereof they speak. If you good folks think I should do a water change, by all means, tell me. Please.

Anything that'll help. I just hate to do something and have it turn out to have done more harm than good.

Again, thanks.....

[Nick]

Big water changes are not bad for your fish as long as they are used clean water, rather than to "old water" stagnating in the tank. I usually do 80% weekly changes on my dwarf puffers, and they do get a bit scared, but no more scared than when I do a smaller water change or just top their tank off from evaporation. To prevent drops in your PH, I'd suggest putting a stocking stuffed with crushed coral in your filter, and every couple weeks clean it and grind it around in your hand so white dust washes out, to keep the surface fresh. This will dissolve into the water slowly as the water gains the carrying capacity, maintaining the PH a bit over 8.

[PufferPuck30]

Thank you for your response, Nick.

Alright....here's the latest....

I got rid of those useless "test strips" and went out and got a more reliable Test Kit after work this afternoon. I also picked up a bottle of Prazi Pro.

I did a large scale water change, (60%), added AmQuel, aerated, and waited. The water extremely murky, almost milky.

I tested.

pH = 7.8
SG = 1.008
Temperature = 82 degrees
Ammonia = 0 ppm
Nitrites = 0.5 ppm
Nitrates = 20 ppm

I added a teaspoon of Prazi Pro and went to liberate my little friend.

Cheli was vibrantly green and very active in the small "bowl" I placed him in while I was changing his water. His color was good, belly was nice and pearly white, he looked like his old self again.

That didn't last long.

Within 30 minutes of placing him back in his tank his color went South again. Worse than ever. He doesn't appear to be in any discomfort, not laboring for breath, swimming calmly in "hunt" mode. Just TERRIBLE color, though.

And, oddly enough, I'll be DAMNED if the right gill is now not PERFECTLY fine, and the LEFT gill is now swollen shut. He's still got the right dorsal fin pinned flat against his body, but the right gill is completely open. The left gill now looks exactly like the right gill has looked since yesterday.

Any advice?

[Mynn]

Awww, poor little Cheli!!!

sounds like you are having a mini cycle.

[PufferPuck30]

That's the second mention of a mini cycle....

Please tell me this is something he'll come through.

What do I have to do in order to minimize the damage, and maximize his chances for survival?

[crazedpuffer]

Just do daily large (%50+ Water Changes) and he should be fine.

[PufferPuck30]

Thank you for your response, flames. If that's what I need to do, then that's what I'll do.

My only concern is that the water quality seems to get WORSE every time I change it.

Also, the Instant Ocean does not appear to be disolving completely. Even though I leave it "soaking" for a good eight hours before adding it to the tank, there are large white crystals which do not appear to be salt, and which never disolve fully.

They end up either floating at the top, or settling into the tank on top of everything. They are clearly visible.

Could this be a problem?

[crazedpuffer]

Are you stirring it up thouroughly? Normally the giant crystals that form together is due to no circulation and it sitting there.

[Puffalicious]

Thank you for your response, flames. If that's what I need to do, then that's what I'll do.

My only concern is that the water quality seems to get WORSE every time I change it.

Also, the Instant Ocean does not appear to be disolving completely. Even though I leave it "soaking" for a good eight hours before adding it to the tank, there are large white crystals which do not appear to be salt, and which never disolve fully.

They end up either floating at the top, or settling into the tank on top of everything. They are clearly visible.

Could this be a problem?

if you want to dissolve the salt faster, get an airstone or a powerhead and run it in the mixing tub, it should dissolve all the salt

[PufferPuck30]

I'm stirring it thoroughly when I initially add the salt, and again before I add it to the tank, but I usually just allow it to sit while I'm at work.

I'll use the air stone.

Thanks for the advice, folks.

[PufferPuck30]

Okay....after reading a number of posts from Puffer parents who's kids exhibit the same symptoms as Cheli seems to have, I'm surprised to find that the LFS where everyone else seems to adopting from are not remotely similar to how Cheli was kept before I adopted him.

I walked into a LFS which came recommened by a friend of my son, who works at PetCo. It is relatively small, and I was surprised to find it scrupulously clean in comparison to EVERY LFS I'd visited. Each and every tank was crystal clear and sparsely populated. They were sparsely decorated, too....but absolutely no signs of waste or other detritus in any of the tanks.

There were many different kinds of puffers. Each and every one housed ONE to a tank. There were two rather large dog-faced puffers, side-by-side in separate tanks. I was particularly impressed with them. They were gorgeous.

After a THIRD circuit of the shop, gazing hopefully into each tank in search of the perfect GSP, I still hadn't found him. Disappointed, I headed for the exit.

On my way out the door, I stopped to ask the proprietor if he, by chance, ever got an GSP's. "Oh yes. Don't keep them on display. In the back." He beckoned me to follow.

He led me to an area in the back of the shop where I'd been admiring the dog-faced puffers and there, to my surprise, I saw what I'd missed completely, although it was right under my nose.....

There, in a dark recess under a stairway, built into the ground, was what appeared to be a concrete "enclosure", roughly 4'W x 4'D x 2.5'H. It was dim in there.....and nothing but rocky caves and grottoes, so much so that the bottom of the enclosure wouldn't have been visible even in the brightest of light.

He flipped on the light and Viola!....The flitted to the "top", quite obviously expecting something. (Food, of course....).

I counted 5 of them....all bright green and pudgy. Beautiful little angels. Apparantly he only keeps GSP's in there, and only 6 or 7 of them in there at a time. "Very aggressive. Very sensitive fish." he advised. "That's why not on display."

He grilled me about my tank. Size, SG, temperature, water parameters, grunting and nodding with each answer. He advised that I'd need a bigger tank. I told him that a friend had given me the tank/hood/heater. I was planning to upgrade, soon. "Christmas. 37 gallons." He grunted again, then walked away. I would have followed, but I was mesmerized by the fishies.....so I stood there and watched them.

He came back with a clear plastic container and a large net. He dipped the container into the enclosure and adroitly captured one of the little green beauties before he knew what hit him. He placed the net over the top of the container and again beckoned me to follow him.

Back at the front of the store he bagged Cheli. He held up the net....."NEVER for catching.....only for covering.....(motioning toward the plastic container)....THIS for catching. You understand?" I did. I nodded.

He showed me a package of frozen blood worms, pre-separated into little "cubes". "Half in morning. Half at night. Thaw in small dish....rinse in tablespoon of tank water....ONLY tank water. Feed six day, skip 1 day. You understand?" I did. I nodded.

He went over everthing again.....water parameters, temperature, habits, NO tank-mates, NO "feeder fish".....

He also bagged up a new heater, and what turned out to be 5 small ghost shrimp, and rang me up.

"Six dollar."

(?)

"For the fish?". He nodded in response. "Ummmm....what about the heater? The food? The...." He waved me off.

"You come back. When you need something....you come back."

He cheerfully waved goodbye and sent Cheli and I on our way.

Nice guy.

[PufferPuck30]

Can someone tell me if it's safe to do a large scale water change with the fish IN the tank?

He's very stressed, and I'm afraid that chasing him around the tank while he zips around, slamming into things, will make matters MUCH worse.

Thanks in advance.