pls help Id this puffer

[adrian_ych]

last of the pics

RIMG0157.JPG

RIMG0159.JPG

RIMG0160.JPG

[Martin Hi.]

hi,
sorry but the pics are still not good enough. it is still looking more like a chelonodon patoca/ chalonodon laticeps to me but i could not say for sure.
but it is a very beautiful one so please take care of it. it's not something you will find every day. i would at least give him a little salt for the beginning like a spoon full on 10l. that is so little that it does not harm any even freshwater puffer but can be a big help (in the beginning) if it is really a saltwater puffer (like c.patoca/c.laticeps are).
for chelonodon take a look here:
http://www.kugelfischforum.de/index.php ... ureView]=0
martin

[sPuffalopagus]

Hi,
I have seen 2 of these here in Singapore too.
Been told the same things, that they are from some Lake in India.
The shop assistant was conscientious enough to ask the supplier for the species name but supplier was unable to provide. They are caught in 100% FW. Would be interesting to find out what it really is...

Cheers!!

[Martin Hi.]

hi,
there are only three real freshwater species living in india: the two little carinotetraodon and tetraodon cutcutia. at least c. travancoricus and tetraodon cutcutia are also living in lakes.
so if the information really should be right (what i do not think) your fish is either t. cutcutia or a new species.
but i still think that it is a saltwater species like for example c. laticeps.
by the way: at least the first picture that you have postet in that link is not showing a cutcutia! the pictures here in the pufferpedia are much better.
martin

[Corvus]

Please see here:

Acta Zoologica Taiwanica 10/1 (1999): A new record of the marine puffer fish genus Chelonodon (Tetraodontifomes, Tetraodontidae) from Freshwater Habitat of Western Ghats, India by Muthukumarasamy Arunachalam et al.

Where in India was it caught. It's quite a large country.

To confirm the possible identity a clear picture of the head showing the nostrils is needed.

[adrian_ych]

head with nostrils....ok...but as they are hard to take as they are very active in lighted times and react when I am around....

Will try to take the pics again

They are very aggressive esp towards same species but ok towards the fugu

The coloring seems rare as normally puffers have dark spots but these 2 have yellow/golden spots that glow in the light....and the "Y" on the head is quite consistant with these species

[Martin Hi.]

hi corvus,
what they call freshwater in such cases is usually brackish water. especially most of the western ghats is brackish water. while both chelonodon species also do enter even freshwater (not only in india) they move to the seas as adults. therefore they should not be to find in lakes in india.
by the way: have you made this citation from the internet or do you own this copy of the acta zoologica?
martin

Please see here:

Acta Zoologica Taiwanica 10/1 (1999): A new record of the marine puffer fish genus Chelonodon (Tetraodontifomes, Tetraodontidae) from Freshwater Habitat of Western Ghats, India by Muthukumarasamy Arunachalam et al.

Where in India was it caught. It's quite a large country.

To confirm the possible identity a clear picture of the head showing the nostrils is needed.

[Corvus]

The C. patoca have been caught 26 km away from the estuary and the measured low conductivity both shows it is actually freshwater.

It is well possible a number of specimen was trapped in a "lake" (perhaps an old oxbow lake), which was connected to the river during the monsoon and separated as a stagnant water when the water level was decreasing again. If the specimens have been caught in such an area it's irrelevant if they are from a lake or a river because during the monsoon they all can be connected.

Have you been to the ghats? Only the waters close to the coast ("back waters") are brackish and during the monsoon even this might change for a while.

Btw. I have this paper from the library.

[Corvus]

head with nostrils....ok...but as they are hard to take as they are very active in lighted times and react when I am around....

Ask Martin for a link to a picture of his Chelonodon, where the nostrils can be seen. So you can compare them by your own if taking a picture is too difficult.

The coloration you describe seems completely in line with C. patoca from India.

EDIT:

Just a short addition: I think the possible Chelonodons (just like the fugu) should be placed in brackish water, too. Not because they cannnot live in fresh water for some months/years in the wild, but because nitrates in the limited volume of an aquarium are toxic to them. Their toxicity is far less if sodium chloride (salt) is in the water.

[Martin Hi.]

hi corvus,
i have allready linked the fotos of my chelonodon.
have you been to the ghats? i have not been there, i have just read that most of the rivers are brakish there most of the year. so you think there could be real freshwater species of the chelonodon in india because it is so far away from the sea?
of course they can be caught in lakes if they are just temporarily dried out rests of rivers.
i still also think i is chelonodon. did you compare your fish with the pictures of my chelonodon?
martin

[Corvus]

I do not think there is a true freshwater species of Chelonodon. I think they are simply C. patoca, which swam upstream and got trapped in an oxbow lake due to the dropping water level after the monsoon. Such frequently happens in flooded areas and the ghats are THE prominent example for the monsoon and its floods.

The western ghats per se are hills and mountains. I do not know where the idea comes from that there could be brackish water. E.g. the puffers from the paper mentioned above came from 600 m above sea level. Brackish water is restriced to the Malabar coastal plane (see back waters) at the border of the ghats and the sea. The rivers are only brackish close to the coast and even those change to freshwater during the monsoon.

[adrian_ych]

Looks like it....but not white spots....yellow/golden spots

[Corvus]

That's ok. The ones in the cited study were fluorescent yellow, too.

[Martin Hi.]

...interesting!
so if you are sure, adrian, you should at least keep him in bracksih water. keep in mind that chelonodon patoca will grow to about 40 cm, c. laticeps will stay much smaller. very difficult to diefferentiate. some scientists believe they both could be only one species while on the other hand we here a lot from patocas that do not grow more than 10 cm...!?
so: brackish plus big tank! by the way: the are, like you said, very agressiv to each other. they will sooner or later kill themselves if they do not get a big tank. they are also finnippers to other species of fish!
martin

[adrian_ych]

Sorry for the late reply....

I keep mine with some bumblee bees & 5 other Fugus - Takifugu ocellatus in a slightly clustered planted tank.....the 2 "Chelonodon" seem to mix well but are aggressive towards each other. The water is slightly salty 1.005 to 1.010 due to the frequent WC as these fish have the tenancy to kill feeder guppies & feeder shrimps rather than eating them whole.

Any suggestion as to what plants are suitable for the high end brachish tanks as many of my plants keep melting away.