Figure Eight with a Nematode- Update 6/26

[Nick]

I had another thought, you should probably build an "operating table" of a totally soaked soft cloth material taunt over a large basin, so the water from the tube has somewhere to go... perhaps even use a mixture of pure aloe and water in the cloth, so it has a "fish slime" feel and fabric fibers won't degrade the slime coat.

[Nick]

I know I keep making suggestions about the life support system, but I can only think this operation is going to have to be done carefully, and if you did not have to rush because you knew he could breath, the whole thing would go MUCH smoother. So what are you knocking him out with? Recent experiences show clove oil may cause brain damage, but one use might be ok... you'll have to use the water you used to put him out as his breathing drip, or it will cleanse the aesthetic from his body and he will wake up during surgery.

[OraLacerta]

No no, keep the suggestions coming if you've got them!

I have a very good material I can use for the soft cloth- the material is very strange because it is soft but doesn't have visible fibers, but is made out of completely natural materials. I wish I knew the English name for the stuff, my family in Germany always sends it over to us.

I would have completely forgot he needs to have the clove oil/water mixture tubed into him or else he'll wake up. I have never used clove oil on him before so I am hoping he'll be ok, and I think the reason for the brain damage is lack of oxygen to the brain, correct? If I keep the water flowing he might just come out of it ok.

I over-fed him today just so I could see the nematodes better and draw the points on a diagram of his body so I can do the surgery quickly. The visible ones are on the tail and stomach, so I'm hoping any internal ones won't be so extensive that the Flubenol will kill him when I dose his recovery tank. We'll see... I'm going to be doing a lot of reading on anatomy and nematodes so I can do the best I can which is what the poor guy deserves.

[Nick]

Discussion among the mods etc here(Don't remember if you were around while this was being mulled over) has suggested that we aren't sure what causes the brain damage... it might be gill and or heart paralysis preventing blood flow to the brain, or a direct neurotoxic effect. If it's heart paralysis causing the lack of 02, the breathing tube won't matter. The data related to clove oil use is mostly based on tests on salmon, only ever putting them under once, and interestingly, they found fish size was only relevant for how LONG it took the fish to go under, not how much clove oil in the water was necessary to put them under. They also put the fish under much longer than is normally done for tooth trimming, and found they started loosing fish past a certain concentration of clove oil in the water. This adds up to, in my mind, a total exposure level leading to brain damage, the study even reported that a couple fish survived the higher exposure levels, but "never regain equilibrium" the exact problem reported by several owners of puffers that have had clove oil trouble. 50 mg/l seems to be the lowest concentration of clove oil that silences even physiological responses, though 80mg/l might be better for an invasive surgery and was well tolerated by the salmon used in the study. Maybe split the differences and aim for 60 or so. Because the study I've been reading finds no effect based on the size of the fish, other than on how long they take to absorb enough to go under, I see no reason the concentrations suggested in the study would not be appropriate for a smaller fish. Given that a fish will only absorb a dissolved substance that easily crosses its membranes until its concentration is in equilibrium in the fish and the water, I suspect that this finding from the study is correct. The study in question is by Woody, Nelson, and Ramstad and seems quite thorough.

[manutius]

This is very interesting stuff guys. Where do you get this information from and is it in the public domain?

[OraLacerta]

My husband didn't get anything from the clinic today because he didn't have time, so I'll find out tomorrow if I can get the things I need.

I remember the thread on clove oil but I don't think I followed it to the end. That's very interesting research, though it's a bit disturbing because many puffer owners need to use the stuff on a regular basis.

[VanillaShake311]

Hey have you tried looking in the library or a bookstore on koi care? I know they have whole chapters on procedures for first AID for koi. I've seen photos in some books of them fixing a prolapsis and removing things like what you are talking about. Worth a shot? I myself have been keeping koi for over 11 years now but have never had to do first AID.

[OraLacerta]

That would be helpful, thanks for the suggestion. I didn't really think to lookfor material at our library because I assumed fish aren't really bothered with, but I might be wrong. I'll check my library's catalogue right now. It may have some suggestions on how to make the procedure quick and how to prevent the fish from suffocating.

On second thought, lol, the library's page is offline so I may just have to go in and look the old-fashioned way.

[OraLacerta]

I have everything but the sutures now, so I didn't do the surgery yet. His recovery tank stands ready for him. As soon as they're open I'm going to call around at other vets in the area and see if anyone will give me/sell me sutures.

When I was cleaning the Figure Eight tank Friday I put the fish into buckets so I could give the sand a through stirring and clean out all of the decorations, and when I put the puffers back into the tank they had faded to a whitish color to match the color of the bucket and I was able to actually see through Bismarck's skin and could see the shape of the worms, as well as see the largest lump is a black mass with multiple worms balled up. Gross but useful and I know where their heads are anchored so that should speed things up quite a bit.

[OraLacerta]

Something always seems to come up and get in the way of this. It turns out we're moving within this month or the next as my husband has just gotten a new job. We may be buying a family member's house in the Catskills but the family has been throwing us in every direction with the whole idea so we're spending all of our time trying to make sense of what everyone is saying... And if we don't get that it's scramble time to find a house somewhere else.

*Sigh*... This thread is to be continued.

[gella81]

I don't know if you are still considering using clove oil to anesthetize your puffer, but I wanted to suggest using Tranquil (available from Fish Pharmaceuticals...http://www.nationalfishpharm.com). I've used both clove oil and Tranquil II to put two of my large puffers to sleep for various procedures. To me, clove oil is a little scarier to use, the fish stop breathing which is nerve racking and probably not good for them and when they come out of it they seem out of sorts. We ordered Tranquil because we hated using the clove oil and have used Tranquil 3 times now. Our puffer is anesthetized quickly, remains breathing, and very quickly after we put him in clean water he comes out of it and begins swimming around like normal. With the clove oil we had a major scare where our puffer didn't come out from under the anesthesia for a long time...we thought we had killed him. Luckily he survived but after that we switched. Hope this helps! Good luck

[mikeosoft]

We use the gel type superglue in our reef aquariums all the time. It sticks to wet surfaces without a problem.

I guy near me once told me about a tang that ate a big glob of superglue that fell into his tank. He said the mouth was glued shut for a few days, but the tang recovered just fine.

Good luck!

[OraLacerta]

Thanks for the suggestions both of you!

Tranquil would take care of the problem of having him not breathing for a long time, and seems safer. My only concern with it is the puffer may feel the procedure being done... Maybe I can administer some local anesthesia with something first. Still, Tranquil seems more appropriate for a longer procedure and I would love not having to use clove oil on him.

I'll also look into that gel superglue. I've done some reading on it and I suppose if it is safe enough to be used underwater in a tank as delicate as a reef then it would probably be safe to use on Bismarck.

Thanks again for the ideas, using those methods would make the procedure less of an ordeal and maybe I could get it done real quick before we have to move. Where do you get your superglue from?

[Nick]

I would not try superglue except on TOP of stitches - the tangs mouth was open again in 3 days, which is about how long it lasts on my skin when I use it as a bandaid, and not nearly long enough for Bismark's skin to heal from a surgical incision. It would be good to seal the water from the tank off of the would for the beginning of his recovery, but I'm not sure that is desirable - if the tank water is immaculate, it should not effect him negatively, and when the worm stubs inside are killed by post op treatment, a tiny bit of exchange might actually let out deadly toxins from the rotting of the worms.

[my name is mike]

what will happen if the nematodes are not removed?