Advice please!

[Lisa_perry75]

Heya!
I have a rekord 96 with 5 young figure 8s, all getting on really well. I added a desert goby, which has been doing well for about a month. I have now added very young mono (1") and two knight gobies (2").

The SG is 1.005 and I do w/cs every 2-3 weeks and do about 60%. I have an aqua-glo in the tank but it looks really dark. I still get ridiculous amounts of brownish algae that comes off really easily. I also change the bogwood around everytime, so they always have something new to explore, this time I created loads of caves and shelter for the new fish.

I realise that this tank is not adequate in the long term, I actually "rescued" the puffers from freshwater and poor health. My fiance has kept puffers for a while so I knew what to expect. Clean water and a slow climb to the current SG has brought them to good health.

I am a student atm so getting a reeeally big tank is not a good idea. I have loads of my other tanks for sale (in the for sale section) to pay for one new tank though. I was thinking about 150 litres I could get without the fiance complaining tooooo much. Then after about a year I will be getting a permanent house so I'll be able to get a bigger tank.

I looove planted tanks, but always thought it would be impossible with the puffers.

Basically, I was thinking about an eheim professional II 2026 (£100 at maidenhead aquatics) I have a heater... I would probably get about 36 x 15 x 18 giving 150L tank.

Thing is I'm not sure what to do lighting wise. I want to go planted, and have some already that could be brought up, but I can't afford to spend a fortune and will struggle to do looooads of maintenance (uni is really crazy atm). For a substrate could I use something like flora-base and 2-3mm gravel on top? My water from the tap is liquid chalk, its like pH 8 so I just add salt (tropin atm but open to suggestions) and put it in. I have lots of bogwood as decor atm but have some bits of slate around. The SG will stay at 1.005. So some advice on planting/lighting would be really helpful.

I've found my old hydrometer seems a bit rubbish, can anyone give me some advice on a good one? Or info on refractometers, can you get good 2nd hand ones or do they have to be new? Maidenhead aquatics have one for £40...

I have tried several times to cultivate snails but they keep dying on me, what should I feed the snails? Any help on that would be good as my puffers really could do with some snails...

Oh and do you reckon I should buy a hood or make one...

Edit:- sorry about the double thread, its seems to not do anything when I click submit!! Having ongoing issues actually...

[Hilly]

Not to worry asbout the double post I have removed the other one.

[OraLacerta]

Hi Lisa,
Is the bogwood real wood? Wood rots much faster in the presence of salt, so I'd recommend you change that out for some artificial wood decorations. The huge bio-load in your small tank, and infrequent waterchanges would contribute to your algae problems.

I would be doing much more frequent water changes in a tank so small with 5 puffers, the mono, and three gobies. That's a huge waste load for such a small tank. We recommend only 2 Figure Eights be kept in a tank of 96 liters or 25 gallons, and you have 5 plus the mono which will get huge, and the gobies which are adding to the waste load and the Knights are usually quite territorial which will add to stress of the other tank mates.

150 liters is not enough for that many puffers and tankmates. For the puffers alone I would recommend at least 55 gallons (208 litres). The Mono is a schooling fish and therefore should be kept in groups of four or more, and depending on the species yours will grow from 8-10" tall, dinner-plate sized, demanding a much much larger tank.

I would suggest you return the mono, and if you cannot get a tank of 55 gallons within a month or two, I would return three of the puffers and the gobies as well. I know that's not something you wanted to hear, but your fish are at risk from disease with all of the crowding, potential aggression, and high amount of wastes. Not only that but your fish are at risk of stunting if not rehoused soon.

[Lisa_perry75]

I didn't know about the wood.

If you read how big they are it works out at 27" of fish in total, which in say 90 litres is three times less than the 1" per litre rule. On top of that there is the 204 on there which turns water over at 680 lph. Plus 60% waterchanges every two to three weeks... I don't think that is infrequent. I have no plants at all which at least partially explains the algae issue.

I'm sorry but I don't see the problem stocking wise atm, and I have mentioned that I am getting a bigger tank in the next few months. When I can the year after that they will be getting a bigger tank again. With a 2026 the lph is 950, which on a 150 L tank is pretty good.

I would've bought a few more monos but I didn't want to put in too many fish in at one time. My fiance had 3 monos but they fought so much that 2 died.

I totally respect your opinion though, and if at any time the water quality decreases or the fish start nipping each other or show any deterioration I will make sure I find good homes for them. If you could possibly give me some help/advice in the particular areas I have highlighted I would really appreciate it

[Nick]

There IS no one inch per liter rule. It's one inch per GALLON, and that only applies to thin bodied fish under 3" total length - guppys, neons and danios. You must account for the mass of the fish with all other fish types, your tank is terribly overstocked. 60% every 2 to 3 weeks is 2 to 3 times less than needs to be done, even with just two figure 8 puffers in that tank, 50% weekly would be needed for them to grow to full size and maintain their health. You could skip a week now and then without it being a big deal, but thats about it.

[Lisa_perry75]

Okay, as mentioned I will strictly monitor water parameters. As the main point is obviously Nitrates need to be low, yes? So as long as I carefully keep an eye on them, the health and behaviour or the fish

Anyone have any help regarding:-
* Planting brackish tanks
* To make or buy a hood
* Sustaining a snail source
* Refractometers versus hydrometers.

would be greatly appreciated please

[Nick]

Everyone seems to buzz about refractometers being easier and more precise, but I don't have any trouble with hydrometers, just make sure no matter which you buy that you test water of known SG and see that your tool matches. Only a few plants survive brackish much, java moss and java fern being the most common. Making a hood is easy if you have basic cutting tools and access to acrylic, just cut to fit, and use a piece of hinge and drawer knob from the hardware store to make it open-able. And btw, nitrates are actually not the main concern with overcrowding fish, hormones the fish release which build up in the water and cause stunting are. Nitrates may shorten the fishs life if they are quite high for extended periods, but hormone-related stunting will never reverse fully. You need to control both to avoid having to do water changes, that is why you use a protein skimmer(to remove some nitrogenous waste before it even becomes ammonia and to remove other complex organics, such as fish hormones) and live rock/sand (absorbs nitrates at the end of the nitrogen cycle) in a salt water tank. This is why everybody here is so worried about the stocking level in the tank, we're not trying to be mean, but fish generally need a lot more space than their size would indicate when they are young to avoid stunting.

[PuffTheMagicFishy]

We can help you with that after the more immediate problems are taken care of. I will not repeat what others have said. Please, please listen to them, for the sake of your fish. "Rescuing" a fish from freshwater does no good if you keep it in an overcrowded tank. Overcrowding can be just as chronically stressful for a fish as improper salinity. This is not just a water quality issue, but also a psychological issue. Puffs need to be able to hide from one another and stake out territories, or else they will be stressed and may nip one another.

I would encourage you to browse our library and read up on pufferkeeping. Also, please check out the PufferPedia article on Fig8s:

http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/ug. ... ocellatus/

There is also an article in the library on snail breeding.

[jake_vdb]

And btw, nitrates are actually not the main concern with overcrowding fish, hormones the fish release which build up in the water and cause stunting are. Nitrates may shorten the fishs life if they are quite high for extended periods, but hormone-related stunting will never reverse fully.

TDS (total dissolved solids) is yet another concern that is only addressed with water changes.

IMO this is what it comes down to; Do you want want to do the minimum to keep your fish alive for a little while? or take care of them properly so they will live a healthy complete life??
You can keep a goldfish alive in a bowl for maybe a year, or up to 30 years with proper care.

[manutius]

I don't want to jump on your back too Lisa but the advice given you really should take on board. We only have the long term health of your fish in mind. Also you will be affected by the trauma that your fish go through. Owning a puffer is like owning no other fish, you will love them, they will become your freinds. Keeping them in usuitable conditions will only make them suffer and you in turn will feel terrible about the care you have given them even if you think you are doing what is right. The normal rules that apply to most fish cannot be applied to puffers and the advice given here has been refined over many years of expert fishkeeping. We offer this advice so you do not make the mistakes we have made in the past and ultimately you will be rewarded with healthy fish that last into their prime.

As an example I have a Mbu puffer- Clooney, in my 5ft tank with plenty of other fish. This is due to my ignorance and the poor info given by my LFS. If I used the cm/L or inch/Gallon calculations my 400L tank is not overstocked. However I know that Clooney needs a tank twice that size on his own and it breaks my heart knowing I have probably shortened his life span by having him in my tank.

Please do not feel we are ganging up on you it may seem harsh but its because we care

[Lisa_perry75]

Yeah I do understand what you guys are saying as I'm a campaigner for bettas in correct tanks, which you can imagine is a uphill struggle.

I must admit that I've been going through a really rough time lately and before that I was doing two weekly w/cs. I'd alternate between my two big tanks. But I'm selling all the rest of them to afford the bigger tank for the puffers. Yep that means getting rid of all my bettas for puffers. So when I only have the puffer tank and snail tank I will step up the w/c to every week.

I still think 50 litres for per puffer is a bit crazy, and 50% water changes every single week a tad excessive.

But, I will look at re-homing two of my puffers, and when he gets a little bigger the mono (I'm not happy with him right now, hes a bit skinny). All I want is the best for them too.

[OraLacerta]

I would've bought a few more monos but I didn't want to put in too many fish in at one time. My fiance had 3 monos but they fought so much that 2 died.

That's why I said they typically need to be kept in groups of at least four, any less than that and they seem to bully one another. I was not advising you get any more monos, however. I was just making the point that in order to keep them properly you would need at least a 100 gallons.

As for the need for frequent water changes, and at least 50L per puffer- Puffers are much larger-bodied fish than most, and create much more waste than similarly sized narrow-bodied fish. They are also very messy feeders, requiring foods that are often more wasteful than flaked foods, and if you observe them eating you will see that when they take a chunk of something into their mouths they blow 'clouds' of debris out of their gills, which also contributes to the bio-load.

And not only water quality is an issue, I have two Figure Eights in a 35 gallon tank that are nearing their adult size. My smaller puffer that I have had since she was under 1" long used to be incredibly docile and trustworthy with even the most tempting lyretailed mollies. Now, as she has matured, she has become very territorial and occasionally harasses my larger Figure Eight which is about 1/2" larger than her. This goes to show that even with the typically docile Figure Eights, maturity can bring aggression. Having even three Figure Eights in your tank, not to mention with the gobies, is asking for trouble in the long-run.

I'm glad you have decided to return two of the puffers and the mono. I'm sorry everything sounds so harsh, but as everyone has been saying- we only have your fish's long-term health in mind!

[Lisa_perry75]

Don't forget I'm getting a bigger tank over the next few months, and again in a year or so. So I am addressing this issue.

[manutius]

My video of Clooney eating a crab claw shows exactly why puffers need larger than normal tanks. http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/vie ... php?t=8536

Also in terms of 50L seeming excessive you have to figure that though a puffer may be 6inches long it is also probably 3 times rounder and wider than your normal slender bodied fish. This makes them larger fish and therefore they produce more waste, not just poop but general metabolic function. Also when digesting food they use up to 40% more O2 just sitting there overstocking or too small a tank places great stress on the puffers for this reason. Thats why puffers need more Litre/cm and there is also the territorial nature to consider of most puffer species

[OraLacerta]

Don't forget I'm getting a bigger tank over the next few months, and again in a year or so. So I am addressing this issue.

Yep, and once you get that 150L tank three Figure Eights and a couple of gobies would do nicely with frequent water changes and over-filtration. Until then you'll just need to do a lot more waterchanges. Best of luck!