Treating Saltwater Ich & IPs- With Pictures

[OraLacerta]

I have debated whether or not to post this because of my recent painful loss of my Hawaiian Spotted Puffer (lest I lose this guy too), but, as suggested by a fellow staff-member, I have posted this so it can be used to help others with similar issues.

My husband bought me a Cyclichthys schoepfi from a reputable marine-fish-only dealer. He had been at the store for two weeks and we witnessed him eating prawns so my husband decided to purchase him for me for an early B'day present. We did notice the burrfish had some ich, and after we picked him up in 3 days he was peppered with ich.

I have read about burrfish and IPs, and so I ordered some Flubenol 15, enough to treat 200 gallons in case they recur. Right now this fish has a concave belly even after eating 4-5 prawns in one feeding. I'm trying to keep his belly almost-flat. I received the meds today, and did a 50% water change and then dosed the tank with 2 milligrams.

DAY 1: I prepared the 20 gallon hospital tank (bare-bottom) with 1.020 SG (as was his salinity at the store). I acclimated him via drip into a bucket for an hour with aeration, then gave him a pH adjusted FW dip (the same temp as the tank) for 15 mins. No meds were added.

DAY 2: I read a post by Puffer Queen advising at least a 30 minute dip, so on day 2 I gave him a 30 minute dip dosed with Formalin and aerated with an airstone. He did very well and swam against the current the entire time, and only rested at the end and I immediately removed him when he did so. Afterwords he looked somewhat stressed (laying on the tank bottom but breathing normally).

DAY 3: In the morning he was exploring and begging. I have been doing 2x daily 40-50% water changes slowly bringing the salinity down, and by day 3 it was down to 1.009, low enough for me to add the sponge filter from my Figure Eight tank to cycle the tank. There was no way to keep beneficial bacteria alive during the rapid drop in salinity, so I had to wait until I lowered it fully, measuring parameters at least 2x a day and doing water changes after feedings keeping all params (ammonia, nitrates and nitrites at 0).

Day 3: In the evening he seemed stressed as he was after the 30 minute dip (he was on the tank bottom, but breathing is about 60 breaths per minute). He ate well, but I was not sure if he was reacting to the lowered salinity. The tank light has been off the entire time. I have noticed slime coming off in strands with ich attached. He still had a lot of ich on him (mostly his fins at that point). I had the tank temperature at 83F, not wanting to stress him further by raising it to 85F.

Day 4: More ich came off of the puffer in strands attached to slime coat. The puffer seemed to be somewhat stressed (sulking) but ate normally. Occasionally he is using one gill at a time and clamping a fin- alternating sides for about 30 mins each. By the end of the day and after a 50% w/c he began to beg but we had already fed him so we just used the opportunity to inspect his body for any infections or ich. He has what looks like a bite-mark on his tail, but it is possible it is tail-rot.

Day 5: Flubenol 15 arrived, dosed 2 milligrams after a 50% water change. The puffer is breathing normally- the alternating use of gills may have been because of all of the ich coming off of his body. He ate 5-6 prawns, and attempts to eat my finger when I press it onto the glass. I have noticed when he hunts he swims with his face on the glass and his bottom elevated and rapidly bull-dozes across the tank bottom- he doesn't swim like this normally so I'm not sure if it's something to be concerned about.

Quick Stats:
-20 gallon long hospital tank, bare-bottom with 2 plastic caves.
-The pH is at 7.8, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all 0- measured 2x daily.
-Temp is still 83F
-SG is 1.009
-Water changes (40-50%) done 1-2 times daily, after feedings. After dosing with Flubenol 15 today (5/2) no waterchanges will be done for 24 hours.
-Diet- So far only eating prawns soaked in Seachem Garlic, fed 2x daily
-Size- He is about 5" counting the tail
-Filtration- Aquatech 30-60 HOB, aeration with bubble wand.
-Chemicals/Additives- Flubenol 15 (2 milligrams) dosed to tank, Prime used for dechlorination, Formalin used in one 30 minute dip, Seachem Garlic used to soak food. No other chemicals used.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[OraLacerta]

That 'rock' is actually a plastic cave. The pics are too fuzzy to show the ich, but in one you can see the chunk out of his tail. The first picture is of him trying to eat my finger.

Also, the white powder-looking stuff on the tank bottom is from the bag of carbon I had in the tank. When I added the Flubenol I removed the bag, and I had to really restle it out of the filter and as a result some of the zeolite crumbled.

[Paul Fox]

Thats one wicked looking puffer, I love it

You say you dosed 2 milligrams? and do you mean 2 grams?
If its a 20 gallon tank, I would suggest one gram, although 2 isnt going to be a problem.
Each pack contains just over 4 grams

[Troender]

WOW! That is one of the most beautiful puffers I've ever seen!

Now I really want to go marine...

[manutius]

Wow what a gorgeous fish, I cannot offer m,uch help health wise but I really hope all work out. Does he have aname? I was thinking Sputnik

[Puffer Queen]

I have debated whether or not to post this because of my recent painful loss of my Hawaiian Spotted Puffer (lest I lose this guy too), but, as suggested by a fellow staff-member, I have posted this so it can be used to help others with similar issues.

My husband bought me a Cyclichthys schoepfi from a reputable marine-fish-only dealer.

Looks like a chilomycterus schoepfi.

He had been at the store for two weeks and we witnessed him eating prawns so my husband decided to purchase him for me for an early B'day present. We did notice the burrfish had some ich, and after we picked him up in 3 days he was peppered with ich.

I have read about burrfish and IPs, and so I ordered some Flubenol 15, enough to treat 200 gallons in case they recur. Right now this fish has a concave belly even after eating 4-5 prawns in one feeding. I'm trying to keep his belly almost-flat. I received the meds today, and did a 50% water change and then dosed the tank with 2 milligrams.

I am not familiar with flubenol use for saltwater fish. Praziquantel and fenbendazole are better dewormers for saltwater fish.

Here is what I found on flubenol:
"This Medicine will kill skin flukes, gill flukes, camallanus worms, tapeworms, anchor worms and other helminthics commonly found in tropical and coldwater fish. It has also been used successfully with 'skinny disease' in clown loaches. "

Not sure of saltwater application??

DAY 1: I prepared the 20 gallon hospital tank (bare-bottom) with 1.020 SG (as was his salinity at the store). I acclimated him via drip into a bucket for an hour with aeration, then gave him a pH adjusted FW dip (the same temp as the tank) for 15 mins. No meds were added.

DAY 2: I read a post by Puffer Queen advising at least a 30 minute dip, so on day 2 I gave him a 30 minute dip dosed with Formalin and aerated with an airstone. He did very well and swam against the current the entire time, and only rested at the end and I immediately removed him when he did so. Afterwords he looked somewhat stressed (laying on the tank bottom but breathing normally).

DAY 3: In the morning he was exploring and begging. I have been doing 2x daily 40-50% water changes slowly bringing the salinity down, and by day 3 it was down to 1.009, low enough for me to add the sponge filter from my Figure Eight tank to cycle the tank. There was no way to keep beneficial bacteria alive during the rapid drop in salinity, so I had to wait until I lowered it fully, measuring parameters at least 2x a day and doing water changes after feedings keeping all params (ammonia, nitrates and nitrites at 0).

How do you prepare your saltwater for changes? Do you aerate the water before adding the salt? How long do you "mix" before using?

Day 3: In the evening he seemed stressed as he was after the 30 minute dip (he was on the tank bottom, but breathing is about 60 breaths per minute). He ate well, but I was not sure if he was reacting to the lowered salinity. The tank light has been off the entire time. I have noticed slime coming off in strands with ich attached. He still had a lot of ich on him (mostly his fins at that point). I had the tank temperature at 83F, not wanting to stress him further by raising it to 85F.

Elevated water temperatures have decreased oxygen. It is better to keep water temps lower as fish with parasites have impaired oxygenation due to parasites in gills and increased metabolic rate which occurs due to increased respirations and stress (due to parasites). Many hobbyists believe that raising the temp of the tank will speed up the parasite life cycle - this is true but maybe by a day or so at the expense of decreasing the oxygen and stressing the fish.

Day 4: More ich came off of the puffer in strands attached to slime coat. The puffer seemed to be somewhat stressed (sulking) but ate normally. Occasionally he is using one gill at a time and clamping a fin- alternating sides for about 30 mins each. By the end of the day and after a 50% w/c he began to beg but we had already fed him so we just used the opportunity to inspect his body for any infections or ich. He has what looks like a bite-mark on his tail, but it is possible it is tail-rot.

What was the pH and ammonia prior to the water change??

Day 5: Flubenol 15 arrived, dosed 2 milligrams after a 50% water change. The puffer is breathing normally- the alternating use of gills may have been because of all of the ich coming off of his body. He ate 5-6 prawns, and attempts to eat my finger when I press it onto the glass. I have noticed when he hunts he swims with his face on the glass and his bottom elevated and rapidly bull-dozes across the tank bottom- he doesn't swim like this normally so I'm not sure if it's something to be concerned about.

Sounds like normal behavior of a puffer in a bare bottom tank - sometimes they have problems with the glare of the glass bottom.

Quick Stats:
-20 gallon long hospital tank, bare-bottom with 2 plastic caves.
-The pH is at 7.8, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all 0- measured 2x daily.
-Temp is still 83F
-SG is 1.009
-Water changes (40-50%) done 1-2 times daily, after feedings. After dosing with Flubenol 15 today (5/2) no waterchanges will be done for 24 hours.
-Diet- So far only eating prawns soaked in Seachem Garlic, fed 2x daily
-Size- He is about 5" counting the tail
-Filtration- Aquatech 30-60 HOB, aeration with bubble wand.
-Chemicals/Additives- Flubenol 15 (2 milligrams) dosed to tank, Prime used for dechlorination, Formalin used in one 30 minute dip, Seachem Garlic used to soak food. No other chemicals used.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Paul Fox]

I am not familiar with flubenol use for saltwater fish. Praziquantel and fenbendazole are better dewormers for saltwater fish.

Here is what I found on flubenol:
"This Medicine will kill skin flukes, gill flukes, camallanus worms, tapeworms, anchor worms and other helminthics commonly found in tropical and coldwater fish. It has also been used successfully with 'skinny disease' in clown loaches. "

Not sure of saltwater application??

If you are not familiar with the product, why state that prazi and fenbendazole are better???
Flubenol 15 fine for brackish puffers.

From what I can tell and from what people using it on salty tanks report, its fine in these conditions as long as the fish is in isolation as the flubenol will kill any inverts.
Its not sold as for marine use as the manufacturer has never personally tested it, although one of the leading marine fish importers in the UK uses it on a lot of their stock without problems

[Puffer Queen]

I am not familiar with flubenol use for saltwater fish. Praziquantel and fenbendazole are better dewormers for saltwater fish.

Here is what I found on flubenol:
"This Medicine will kill skin flukes, gill flukes, camallanus worms, tapeworms, anchor worms and other helminthics commonly found in tropical and coldwater fish. It has also been used successfully with 'skinny disease' in clown loaches. "

Not sure of saltwater application??

If you are not familiar with the product, why state that prazi and fenbendazole are better???
Flubenol 15 fine for brackish puffers.

I use medications that have been proven effective on saltwater fish. Fish veterinarians that have completed many years of research recommend the drugs that I have suggested.

[Boxermom]

PQ, I removed your duplicate post.

[Paul Fox]

I use medications that have been proven effective on saltwater fish. Fish veterinarians that have completed many years of research recommend the drugs that I have suggested.

Fair enough.
Flubenol 15 has been used for around 20 years in the trade and its never killed one fish, saltwater, brackish or freshwater, so thats safe and effective as well.

Not going to start an argument here, but if prazi and fenbendazole were effective and safe they would be legal for use in the uk, but they are not....

[Puffer Queen]

Unfortunately most effective and safe medications - ie antibiotics are not available in the UK.

[Boxermom]

I don't want to start an argument but geez, Paul, you need to recognize that there are many other safe, effective (and readily available to many people) products other than Flubenol. I don't understand this obsession you appear to have to shove Flubenol down everyone's throat. Just because someone with vast experience recommends something else doesn't mean you need to jump all over them about it.

[Paul Fox]

It is well documented that the downside of using prazi and similar anti-parasites are the side effects, mainly caused by the mode of action of the med, here is a c & p from wikepedia which explains it, and I cite this as the main reason for trying to steer members away from using such meds. No country bashing intended, but in most countries prazi etc. is not available for sale to treat fish, as it has a record of killing many of them........

"The majority of side-effects develop due to the killing of parasites, release of contents of parasites and consequent host immune reactions. The heavier the parasite burden, the heavier and more frequent the side effects normally are".

Liver and sometimes kidney damage is caused by the use of prazi also, and I for one would not expose my fish to a substance that could cause these problems, and feel strongly that I should point this out to all of you, hence my recommendation to use Flubenol 15 which acts solely on the receptors of the parasite, and does nothing adverse to the host, and causes the parasite to starve to death, rather than poison or exhaust it.

Prazi and other wormers only have a very short half life, so many parasites, particularly egg laying ones will need continued re-dosing of the fish in an attempt to kill the parasites which continuosly hatch from the eggs when prazi has weakened beyond being effective, giving a far greater chance of damaging your pet...

[OraLacerta]

Thanks for all of the posts everyone, I'm glad you all like him. I like the name suggestion, Manutius, actually we're considering that. Right now we're holding off on naming him until he's safely past his illness.


Ok, to address IP medicine debate- I decided to try Flubenol. Nick has used it successfully to treat 2 of his GSPs. I decided to try it because they (the company) claim it is safe and I have read enough to convince me that if it doesn't work at least it isn't harmful. If it doesn't work, that will be valuable information for others. If it does, that will also be useful for others. With respect to both sides of the debate, I ask that we, please, wait to continue the conversation on IP meds until after the results are in; the meds have been added to the tank so all we can do now is wait and see. I am hoping my experiences will show this med's effectiveness in SW.

Anyways, back to the puff. I'm sorry for not responding sooner; I was busy last night cleaning off my 100 LBs of Caribbean LR (yay!) and today I have been busy with other things.

To respond to the main questions by PQ:

Looks like a chilomycterus schoepfi.

I got the scientific name off of WWM; they must have their scientific names mixed up?
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/diodontpuffers.htm

How do you prepare your saltwater for changes? Do you aerate the water before adding the salt? How long do you "mix" before using?

For the first 4 days I only had enough time between water changes to prepare buckets 4 hours prior. I add the salt & prime to the bucket, mix with a high-pressure hose which mixes the salt much better than any other method I have used. After that I aerate with airstones. I only have 3 'fish safe' buckets I can use for mixing and not enough airpumps to prep more than that.

Now I am able to prep the water 24 hours before (the tank is established with the Figure Eight tank filtermedia thus less waterchanges). I'm reading nitrates at 5 ppm, nitrite & ammonia are at 0 after testing 2x today.

Elevated water temperatures have decreased oxygen. It is better to keep water temps lower as fish with parasites have impaired oxygenation due to parasites in gills and increased metabolic rate which occurs due to increased respirations and stress (due to parasites). Many hobbyists believe that raising the temp of the tank will speed up the parasite life cycle - this is true but maybe by a day or so at the expense of decreasing the oxygen and stressing the fish.

I have the tank very well aerated: the filter agitates the surface of the water tremendously when the water level is about 2 cm below the filter. I also have a powerful pump attached to a bubblewand. I am not raising the temp further as his ich is almost completely detached. I'm glad I refrained from raising it to 85F. Do you recommend I lower it down to 80F?

What was the pH and ammonia prior to the water change??

The pH has been steady at 7.8 (a bit low but I am running low on pH buffer and can't get more till this weekend), and I was detecting almost .25 ppm ammonia after feedings (before the salinity was down and the F8 tank bacteria added), though I am wondering if my Prime is affecting my current test. I am going to get a different test see if the Prime is altering my results.

Sounds like normal behavior of a puffer in a bare bottom tank - sometimes they have problems with the glare of the glass bottom.

I don't see how he is getting glare because his lights are always off. The only times the light was on was when I took the pictures and when I periodically inspect his body for ich. Could he still get glare from outside light sources? I just want to be extra-sure this isn't some sort of symptom to another problem.

Thanks for your time PQ- I appreciate your help. Sorry I couldn't respond sooner.

You say you dosed 2 milligrams? and do you mean 2 grams?
If its a 20 gallon tank, I would suggest one gram, although 2 isn't going to be a problem.
Each pack contains just over 4 grams

Sorry for the typos- I added just under 2 grams. Now, it is too early to know if this stuff has really worked, but today he is a totally different fish. I am really surprised at what an appetite he has developed! He ate 10 prawns in one sitting which actually gave him somewhat of a pudge! He kept the pudge for a few hours and right now he is looking flat, not concave as before. He is constantly begging for food! We'll see.

Do you suggest I re-dose after doing a w/c or is the time he has had it in his tank sufficient?

here is a c & p from wikepedia which explains it...

And as a side note, Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information, so it would be great if you could find more credible sources to back up claims about Prazi. There's really no way to verify how accurate the info on Wikipedia is without checking it agaist other, credible, sources.

[Puffer Queen]

Dr Ed Noga' Fish Disease book has an excellent drug reference section.

I have found if you paint the bottom of the tank or put a "liner" on the bottom, the behavior you are describing stops.

Many tank additives do affect the results of some test kits.

When treating parasites or bacterial infections, I prefer lower temperatures to increase the oxygen carrying capabilities and with lower temps, bacteria don't grow as well.

Problem with worms, if not treated effectively they can migrate out of the intestinal tract and lodge in any organ.....Here are pics of worms infesting the live and spleen.....unfortunately one would not know this until death/necropsy.