GSP lethargy

[satanas556]

Hi all.

Been a good while since I last visited, but all has been going well!

Until now...

Two of my five GSPs are laying on the bottom of the tank. They do feed, and sometimes even have glowing heads, but they just lay there most of the time. Several of them have what appear to be scratches too, although the three not laying about seem fine.
I have the parameters:

pH: 7.5
Nitrate: 15 ish
Nitrite 0.1
Ammonia: Possible 0.3 (between 0 and 0.6 on the scale)

The temperature is 25.1 currently.

The SG was 1.010 last week. I've gone to test it tonight but the guage seems to be broken.
I was feeding them a small amount every day. Over the past two weeks since this activity, I have been feeding every other day.
The tank is smaller than I would like, at 240 litres. The bigger one I bought for them is broken and being repaired. I'm not sure I want to move them into it like this though, I am worried about the stress.

I have looked on puffernet (I think it was called), and all the symptoms of nitrate poisoning seem to fit. I have taken to doing bigger water changes and have added some live plants (Java fern). I also changed all the filters (bar one of the bacteria ones), and even added cycling bacteria to help the new one along. I do have a lot of algae in the tank, on the back where it's hard to get at.

So two questions really. Do you think that nitrate poisoning could be the culprit, and what could be the cause? There has been nothing new added to the tank for a long while now.

Best wishes,

Mel

[Nick]

First, welcome, I will try to answer your questions, if I seem curt at all, its just because I'm trying to put out so much information at once. First, your tank has defiantly become uncycled, and puffers are VERY sensitive to ammonia and nitrate, and usually do not survive cycling a tank. You NEED to do 50% daily water changes, that tank is defiantly too small for that many GSP's(they do best with a min of 30 gallons each), you should probably only keep two unless the larger tank you will be readying is 125 gallon or more and ready within a few months. Use Prime as your water conditioner when you do the changes, you can use several times what is needed to dechlorinate the water and it will detoxify the ammonia and nitrite in the water while the tank cycles. Don't add any cycling products to the tank unless you can get Biospira, anything else they sell you is bunk and will make the conditions worse, not better. How quickly did you bring the SG up to 1.010? If it was faster than .002 per week, you nuked your good bacteria and that's how your tank ended up uncycled.

[satanas556]

First, welcome, I will try to answer your questions, if I seem curt at all, its just because I'm trying to put out so much information at once.

Hi. Don't worry about seeming curt, I'm here to learn and help my fish.
Thanks for replying. I have some questions arising from your answers though.

First, your tank has defiantly become uncycled, and puffers are VERY sensitive to ammonia and nitrate, and usually do not survive cycling a tank.

Why is it only affecting two of them? Do you think maybe there was an underlying problem with them that I missed?

You NEED to do 50% daily water changes, that tank is defiantly too small for that many GSP's(they do best with a min of 30 gallons each), you should probably only keep two unless the larger tank you will be readying is 125 gallon or more and ready within a few months.

Yes, the new tank will be ready in about a month. It is around the 125 mark, it might be 130. That is a stop gap too.

Use Prime as your water conditioner when you do the changes, you can use several times what is needed to dechlorinate the water and it will detoxify the ammonia and nitrite in the water while the tank cycles.

What is Prime? I currently add Nutrafin Aquaplus. I am in the UK, is Prime available here? Does it decholrinate quickly? How quickly?

Don't add any cycling products to the tank unless you can get Biospira, anything else they sell you is bunk and will make the conditions worse, not better.

I've never seen Biospira in any of my LFS. The bacteria I added when I changed one of the filters is Bactinettes.

How quickly did you bring the SG up to 1.010? If it was faster than .002 per week, you nuked your good bacteria and that's how your tank ended up uncycled.

The SG has been at 1.010 for ages. I gradually raised it from when I first got the fish as few years ago.

Thanks again.

Mel

[Nick]

The reason it's only effecting those two is because they are the weakest. Water quality problems always do the most damage to the weakest fish, and any ammonia or nitrite is a water quality problem for a puffer, they're just infuriatingly sensitive to water quality. I'm pretty sure you can get Prime in the UK, it's defiantely available internationally. It is SUPER concentrated(5 ml will dechlorinate 50 gallons, it comes out to around one drop from a dropper per gallon) and works instantly. You will not be able to get biospira in the UK however, so just pass on bacterial products altogether, adding dead bacteria only adds more ammonia when it decays. On such a well established tank, my only guess is that doing more than one filter at once is the culprit - I never clean more than one at a time, preferably a few weeks apart, and I rinse gently in some tank water in a pitcher, not tap water. Puffers have a killer bioload. Is it possible the tank could have been destablized by a bad water change? Maybe the marine mix wasn't quite disolved right, or the hydrometer got something on it and your replacement water was off enough to kill some bacteria. Part of the problem might be the java fern as well - it can struggle along at SG 1.005, but I think 1.010 is just too much, and it may be dying and adding to the bioload. The algae is not a problem.

[Hilly]

Seachem Prime is available in the UK, if your LFS's dont carry it you can purchase it online from places like Aquatics Online.co.uk

[satanas556]

I'll get down to the LFS tomorrow and see if I can get some Prime. I'll have to check how quickly the Nutrafin is clearing the chlorine until I get some, I normally give it a day or two anyway just to be safe.
I really don't know what has caused this, I have been doing nothing different. The java fern was only added a week ago, as I read live plants might help, so as it looks healthy at the moment, maybe I should see how it gets on?
The filters... Well they were changed in a panic. I have 2 of the bacteria ones in the tank, but I only changed one. I rushed out and bought all brand new from the shop those I didn't have new in reserve.

I'll get cracking on the water changes and the Prime. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all the help. Fingers crossed.

[Nick]

Ahh, virgin media, I see. Personally I never use new filter media unless my old is so torn up the water just pours through it, I just rinse the sponges so water can get through again, leaving most of the bacteria in the sponge and all of it in the bio-media, which I never touch. It's very likely rotting debris in the filter with the new media is causing the problem. The rotting stuff in there is turning to ammonia, then mixing with the water, then that ammonia is turned to nitrite in the other filter, that's where the nitrite is coming from, and eventually the nitrite is being broken down in the other filter as well. I think the bio load is just slightly too high for the bacteria in the one filter, and it's going to take the other one time to catch up with virgin media. The unchanged filter will seed the other one, and hopefully the cycle will completely fast and without stressing the puffers more than they are already. Good luck, i hope all the puffers pull through.

[satanas556]

Just a quick update.

Still the same I am afraid. They haven't got any worse though.
I have my new tank ready to be set up tomorrow, and I have posted in 'Brackish' asking for some advice on cycling since I know I didn't get enough information from the LFS last time. Since I have sick fish I want to make sure I miss nothing.
I have done all I possible can at this time. I hope that the moving to a new tank will help matters as all I can think of now is that they are very unhappy with the one they are in size wise.

Speaking of moving them, what is the best way to go about this? Last move I could get them all in a plastic bag and do the gradual introduction bit. This time they are a lot bigger. I have seen that it's best not to net them, but to catch them in a jug. If I do that, a) I am afraid they will jump out, as one did when I accidently caught one before in the jug I use for water refreshes, and b) how will I do a gradual introduction?

Best wishes,

Mel

[Hilly]

Get some big fish bags, like the ones you would see them putting big fish in like Koi, Arowana etc...

Drop the water level, roll the bag down making a collar and submerge it in one end of the tank, use a large net that can cover the width of the tank and then begin the herding. You will find it easier catching one of them at a time than trying to get them all at once.

[satanas556]

Ah. I think I might get them a bag each
That'll be one big bag full of fuming puffs otherwise.
Thanks.

[Pufferpunk]

Might want to double the bag--puffers have been known to easily bite thru them.