snail breeding tank for Bob the f8 puffer!

[felixfefe]

Hello!
I really love this site! It's so good to be able to discuss issues and get advice! Thankyou!
Well now, i have just today acquired (impulse buy !) a 12L tank for the sole purpose of breeding snails for my lovely little puffer 'Bob'!
Here's a pick of the fierce hunter...Of fish. when it comes to us humans, he's off like a shot! hehe!:
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310 ... 020668.jpg
I got the tank, the snails and some gravel and then thought, what the hey, i may as well get a Betta as well! I researched them a lot a while back but didn't get around to getting one and when i asked (because I'd forgotten) if the Betta would do OK without filtration and heater the guy was like "SURE, sure, no worries!" But i bought some java moss to help with the nitrites anyway.. I realize now that i need to get a heater for the Betta and have done!
So, anyway, apart from all this inane chatter , the main reason I've written in here is to ask your advice. I need an ID on the snails!
Now, I'm not sure exactly what snails they are but i believe they are of the Pomacea bridgesii or golden apple snail variety(there are also some smaller brownish snails in there too..ID anyone?: see pictures if you would be so kind! Thanks!...
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310 ... 0684-1.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310 ... 020681.jpg
Are these OK to feed little bob, for his teeth? I wonder if there are good snails and bad snails for puffers.. He seemed a bit wary of them honestly...He's had a go, but wasn't as veracious as i thought he'd be...Perhaps the first time with snails for him me thinks... The first one i dropped in seemed to be going successfully, dinner time wise, until it dropped into the domain, under the driftwood, of brutus the seemingly giant ghost shrimp. Now, brutus and bob are around the same size length wise and bob got a bit of a pinching honestly. So i created a feeding platform in the gravel for bob (a kind of sacrificial pit, if you will!) but after the fracas over the first snail, bob kept on getting close to it and then looking all around him as if to beg the question "why hasn't anyone attacked me yet?", things are quiet..A little toooo quiet, sort of vibe! Hope he'll get used to em, as I've just spent a bundle setting him up for regular snail feeding frenzies (first attempt not withstanding!)
So questions: the right kind of snail?
Thanks a lot,
Felix and Bob (short for bobbathy!!) ahem

[Nick]

My bettas eat small snails and snail eggs, and nips the antennae off any larger snails...

[felixfefe]

oohher! Let's hope that works out ok for the snails! Then again, they are being harvested...

[Nick]

Those snails are apple snails. They won't breed for you, they're seasonal egg layers who need to mate and then produce large clusters of eggs above the water line when the right temperature change conditions are met. You get a LOT of babies at once, but they only lay now and again, and are not worth the trouble to breed for puffers. Get yourself pond or ramshorn snails, they are smaller, breed when smaller, and breed continually with just a source of food. How big are they compared to him? You should give him snails the size of his eye, maybe a bit bigger. Those long pointy ones, you probably shouldn't offer those. They're called malasian trumpet snails, and are too tough for most puffers to break; most will just give up, but the really persistent ones might try till they damage or overwear their beak, so they are not recommened.

[felixfefe]

Crickey! Blasted salesman! Oh well, i suppose he is in sales! I just wish honesty and selling could go hand in hand.

[Nick]

I doubt he had any idea the apple snails need special care to breed, or the MTS frustrate certain puffers. The MTS breed easily, so I suppose if you don't mind crushing the shell for your puffers they are still useable. So how big are those snails relative to your puffers?

[felixfefe]

thanks for the info!
I have 20 small ones (apple snails) ( around a cm and below ) and two quite large ones (a bit below an inch, i'd say). I think they probably are too big for the puffer to eat, but i'm not that bothered about crushing them if it helps get some use out of them...
Now, these malaysian snails... I should probably just get rid of them shouldn't I? I have put two in the puffer tank (one was hopefully lost to the ghost shrimp, who seemed to be making a fair meal of it, and the other, well i don't know what's happened to that one...Assuming bob hasn't managed to eat him..What do you think are the chances of them multiplying in the main tank? I really would rather not have a whole load of them in there breeding away! Hnece the seperate tank! errr!

[Nick]

MTS(malasian trumpet snails) are asexual and one can lay as many eggs as it wants. Find them. A cm might be a bit big for your puffers right now, he really needs them small enough to fit in his mouth if you want his beak to wear. Crush them poorly, so he can fit them in his mouth, and they will work ok. The big ones are too large to feed him at once, even if you crush him. It would be gross overeating and foul the water. I'd just put them into another tank if you have one, they are beneficial scavengers and unlikely to eat your plants. If you still want to get use out of the MTS, you can always smash them with a hammer before feeding them and remove the long pointy part of the shell, which is nearly solid anyway.

[felixfefe]

Ok, thanks!
One thing though...Do you think the malaysian ones can survive salty water? I'm hoping they will have died in there from the water parameters...

[Nick]

How salty? They wont' survive full marine, but F8's are usually down under 1.005, so they just might. They like to bury themselves if they can, if you have sand they are always out of site.

[felixfefe]

how salty is a bit complicated.. When i got the f8 is came out of a FW tank setup...I introduced him in to my set up which was also FW...I discovered, however that white spot was present, so i have raised the temps to around 85f and added 6 tablespoons of salt progressively over a week...The tank is 54 Litres, or 14 or so uk gallons. Sorry i can't be more specific.
I have quite large gravel in there, so it's going to be a hard on catching the little devils. Que stupendous flashlight search of entire tank! Aaaargh!

[Nick]

That won't bother the snail at all. Since you have a F8, the best treatment for the ich would be marine mix, not aqarium salt, so use that, as you will need it anyway, and using a hydrometer or refractometer, mix up a batch of water for a 50% water change at SG 1.003. This will put the tank at an SG of 1.0015, enough to hit the ich hard and benefit the puffer, but not enough to effect the biofilter. The next week, you can do a 50% change with the change water at SG 1.004, which will bring the water in the tank up to about SG 1.003. The next week do a 50% water change with the change water at an SG of 1.005, and ever after do weekly changes of 50% volume with water at SG 1.005. The ich will be gone without a trace in only a couple weeks, and the temperature can be returned to normal after that. After a total of about 2 months with these water changes, the tank will be at about SG 1.005, which will give your F8 the longest, most disease free life possible.

[felixfefe]

Man, that's great advice! Thanks so much!
I can say with great relief that i have managed to find BOTH of the malaysian snails! Thank goodness! I just hope that they haven't layed any egggs in the meantime! I really wouldn't like that! REALLY! Hopefully, you've saved me on that one! Time will tell, i'm sure!

[felixfefe]

So, do you think if i introduce these ramshorn snails or pond snails in to the "cultivation tank" the malaysians would die out? To be honest, i din't really know what i was getting in to with them and they really aren't the kind of thing i really want to keep... I know that may sound cruel...I don't mean to be..I don't know what the general feeling about aquatic snails is... But i don't fancy this sort... The thing is, i'm lothe to tip out all the gravel in the small tank...

[Nick]

Your welcome, I think your puffer will be ok, you seem perfectly receptive to information about your puffer, if you keep your ears open around here you can learn a lot. I'm glad you found those snails, I'm 99% sure you found them in plunty of time. Good luck with the ich, I'm sure the marine mix and time will pop those ich bugs dead