Malaysian Trumpet snail for fahakas

[nmonks]

You really should take a look at what puffers eat in the wild. They bite rock, coral, oysters, crabs, and such.

For an adult T. lineatus even the biggest Melanoides snail is nothing. You might not want to use them as a regular diet, but the odd one isn't much of a risk. They can't possibly cause more damage to the teeth than when we cut back the teeth using metal clippers. Our muscles plus the hardness of the steel plus the leverage in the pliers is going to result in a force orders of magnitude stronger that anything a relatively small animal like a pufferfish could apply to a snail shell. Just think about it for a moment: our size makes that inescapable: we could easily use those pliers to cut thin steel cable, but a puffer certainly can't cut steel cable with its teeth. So if the pliers are safe, then Melanoides snails are, or else the pliers are unsafe, in which case the Melanoides snails be unsafe too. But saying the pliers are safe but the Melanoides snails aren't is illogical.

I suspect puffers are pretty good at sizing up potential prey, and are able to feel if their teeth are about to break in just the same way we would.

Cheers, Neale

[Boxermom]

I fully respect your opinion about them, Neale, but I still won't risk my puffers when there are safer and easily available options.

Its not illogical when you consider that we can exert a good bit of control as to how the pliers cut their teeth, as opposed to them breaking them and possibly damaging the roots on something by themselves. At least its not illogical to me.

[nmonks]

Tina --

Respectfully, I think the sensitivity is going to be the other way around. We routinely apply too much force using our hands, we just aren't good at this when working in unfamiliar ways. We're better with practise, but even then, all the clanking in a busy dining room will make it clear we often push too hard with knives and forks. On the other hand, we are very good at applying just the right force when chewing and biting. We don't usually clank our teeth together, even between mouthfuls of firm food (e.g. carrots) and soft food (e.g. tomatoes).

My assumption is that pufferfish would work in the same way. They will have lots of nerves in the jaw (remember, what we call "teeth" on puffers aren't really teeth at all) and they will be using those nerves to send constant feedback to the brain. When they bite something, like a snail, they will be aware of the resistance of the shell and will use their jaw muscles accordingly. One has to assume they "tweak" the force depending on the prey, a little force for bloodworms, a lot of force for snails. They won't be using the same level of force all the time any more than we do.

The cuticle clippers used to cut the teeth of a puffer must have a mechanical advantage of at least ten, i.e., whatever force we apply is magnified ten-fold on the actual thing being cut. It's inconcievable given our size and strength that that force would be less than that of a pufferfish. Simply no way. With those cuticle clippers you could at least as easily break open a snail shell as the pufferfish, surely?

From having done the tooth clipping thing myself, I can feel how clumsy the operation is, and how minimal is my sense of what level of force is required. It's basically done on trust -- I know it's safe, so I just get one with it. I have no sense of how much force I'm applying. I suspect pufferfish know *exactly* how much force they apply on snail shells, if for no other reason than evolution would select for fish that use the least energy in biting and waste the least energy on repairing broken teeth.

Cheers, Neale

[Boxermom]

I'm not sure how you can apply too much pressure in a case where you're using clippers on something. If I'm clipping my fingernail, does it really matter if I'm using 1 lb. per square inch of pressure or 10 lbs. per square inch of pressure? They're clippers. Once they break through whatever they are applied to, they stop. Its not the same as applying too much pressure to cut your steak, as if you apply too much in that case, you can theoretically break through the plate and/or table - there's nothing really to stop it.

Knowing that someone's puffer has indeed broken its teeth on an MTS indicates that it is a risk. Humans have also broken their teeth when eating things, but unlike puffers, we can go to the dentist and have a crown installed if necesary.

I've been bitten by one of my puffers, so I'm aware of how strong and sharp their teeth can be. I've heard tell of a diver poking at a porc and having his finger bitten off. I believe that they do have very impressively sharp and strong teeth and jaws. However, that doesn't convince me that its a good idea to risk feeding them MTS. If there were few other options available, I might say its worth the risk. But there are man other, safer options so I see no need to put them at risk.

If we were talking only about very large, adult puffers, I might be more inclined to agree with you. Once Linus is very large, I'm sure MTS would be nothing to him. I've seen some puffers chew right through the shells of clams, and to them, MTS might be nothing. But I cannot recommend to anyone, myself included, to attempt feeding MTS to any puffer that can't already do that.

[RTR]

My mbu would not touch small snails after he was more than half grown, so his tank had plenty of smallish common pond snails, but no large ones. Common ramshorns never did establish in his tank - they don't breed for me at as small a size as the pond snails, so never reached breeding size if loaded into his tank before/below his cut-off size.

The fahakas were not as picky. No snail ever established there.

None of those were ever exposed to MTS. While it was much smaller puffers with which I had troubles, that was quite enough for me. That was long ago and no puffer of mine has seen an MTS since, nor will any in the fuiture, regardless of size. I don't do things intentionally which have a known failure rate, regardless of how low that failure rate is. There are alternates, why not use them?

[manutius]

I found that Clooney when smaller would test the strenght of a food item with little bites and applied but controlled pressure. He would move the snail or cockle about in his mouth to assess it I would assume for a weak point. Of course I cannot prove that he was doing exactly that but thats what it looked like and it makes sense to me. If a snail, often MTS or cockle was "unbreakable" it would be left alone. I think that with a MBU and also a Fahaka the risk of breking teeth is lesser than say an SAP or DP naturally. I think it is silly though as RTR says to take the risk if there has been a risk highlighted especially as there are much safer options

[grayhavens]

Does anyone think baby Malaysian Snails would be OK to feed a GSP?
I have some Ramshorn Snails, but they don't appear to reproduce any snails small enough for my 1 inch GSP to feed on. On the other hand, I have several baby MS in a feeder tank. I just want to know if the Malaysian Snail's young might be softer than the adults.

[Rocker]

I personally wouldn't take the risk. Having seen them chip teeth and heard a few stories of similar over the years then to me it is just not worth the risk. Others seem not to have a problem with feeding them to their puffers but then again its only a matter of time.

[Boxermom]

Agreed.