Help! Sick Porcupine Puffer

Oh no! Sick fish?! Come here and see if someone can help!
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Read this before posting!!

Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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Cheryl
Puffer Fry
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Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:29 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Help! Sick Porcupine Puffer

Post by Cheryl »

I have a problem with my porcupine puffer. We have our fish for about a year and he has always been a voracious eater and now we can't get him to eat anything - not even a fiddler crab. He usually eats frozen krill that has been thawed and he sucks them in whole. We also
suppliment with dried krill, small crabs, mysis shrimp, and ghost shrimp. We have tried adding Kent Garlic Xtreme to entice him
to eat. All he does is chase after the food as it falls and picks at it with his mouth barely open but doesn't eat. He can close his mouth just fine and I don't think it is a problem with overgrown teeth. He literally went from sucking up krill one day and not eating the next.

It's been a week and a half since he's eaten and he is looking very concave/bent over. His eyes are clear and
his body looks in great shape - he just won't eat.

Water info.: pH (7.8), ammonia (0), nitrites (0), and nitrates (0). The specific gravity is 1.022
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Pufferpunk
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Post by Pufferpunk »

Has krill been his main staple? Can he open his mouth at all?
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Cheryl
Puffer Fry
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Location: Houston, TX

Post by Cheryl »

Krill has been the food given most often and until looking at the other post about a krill-fed puffer we did not know that this could be a problem. He also gets the other foods mentioned.

He can open his mouth a little. Is there anything that can help him? We're very attached and upset. We were told to feed it freeze dried or thawed krill by the saltwater "specialist" at a reputable LFS and thought we were doing the right thing and offered the crabs and ghost shrimp as a treat and to help keep his teeth down.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
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Pufferpunk
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Posts: 32979
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:
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Post by Pufferpunk »

I've got to get to work but try a search for lockjaw here.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Cheryl
Puffer Fry
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:29 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Post by Cheryl »

I tried feeding mysis shrimp tonight and he didn't eat that either.
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Cheryl
Puffer Fry
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:29 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Post by Cheryl »

I did a search as Pufferpunk suggested. I found an article that says to give them vitamin B but doesn't say how to administer or how much to give. Another post has someone saying that they are treating this malady with iodine and vitamin B. Again, how much and how is it done?

I don't think the teeth are an issue since I can't even see them when he looks at me. I have trimmed my F8's teeth a couple of times and it was obvious when he needed it.

Is it as obvious with the larger puffers? It would be great if that was his only problem, but I really think it is lock jaw.
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Pufferpunk
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Posts: 32979
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Greenville, SC
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Post by Pufferpunk »

You will have to force-feed your puffer by mashing food in a blender & mixing the vits in with it. You take a long rubber tube & push it in as far as it will go into it's stomach. You'll need a large syringe to push the food in with. Do not over feed, just till you se the tummy getting rounded. The iodine can be administered to the tank according to the directions oon the bottle. Check into Lugol's solution. Maybe PufferQueen can give better advice with all this.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Post by Puffer Queen »

I do not recommend adding iodine to the tank unless there is a documented iodine deficiency - water tested. Then there is always a risk that the iodine will bind and release later and lead to toxicity.

There is NO scientific data that supports that diets of krill lead to iodine deficiency. Krill is naturally high in iodine. Freeze drying does not alter the iodine content.

If one uses a rubber or plastic catheter to force feed a puffer - be careful that the puffer does not bite the catheter as it can & will break in half and be ingested. Anesthetizing decreases stress and prevents injury to the puffer and to the owner.
Kelly
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Pufferpunk
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Posts: 32979
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:
Contact Pufferpunk

Post by Pufferpunk »

So would a plastic tube be better? I just thought rubber would be less irritating to their insides. Any advise on lockjaw in general? It seems to me that many, many, fish that develop lockjaw, have been fed a diet of mostly krill. Just a coincidence?
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Post by Puffer Queen »

Not a coincidence - proven fact - diet mainly of krill leads to nutritional deficiencies and the "first" noticeable symptom is lockjaw. I have an article that hopefully will be published soon.

As far as inserting a tube in an arothron or diodon puffer - unless the puffer is extremely weak, anesthesia for tube placement/gavage feeding. Rubber tubes are preferred to plastic but both can be bitten in half unless anesthetized.
Kelly
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Pufferpunk
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Posts: 32979
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:
Contact Pufferpunk

Post by Pufferpunk »

I'll be quite relieved then you get that article out, so I can start linking to it! Unless you'll let us put it here too? Do you have a recipe for force-feeding?
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Cheryl
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Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:29 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Post by Cheryl »

Thank you Pufferpunk and Puffer Queen for your responses. I have anesthesized a F8, but need to know how much clove oil and water to use for a larger puffer. Do you know about how many cc's of food to feed and which foods should I mash together? Do I get the tube at the LFS or hardware store? I still don't know what vitamins to use. Do the LF stores sell a liquid fish vitamin?

I have tube-fed kittens and cats when I worked at an animal shelter before my teaching career began so I'm not too concerned about this especially since fish don't have lungs to be concerned about.
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Post by Puffer Queen »

Cheryl wrote:Thank you Pufferpunk and Puffer Queen for your responses. I have anesthesized a F8, but need to know how much clove oil and water to use for a larger puffer.
I use MS222 - I have had better success with it than clove oil so hopefully Jeni can help you with the clove oil dose.
Do you know about how many cc's of food to feed and which foods should I mash together?
The general rule of feeding is 2 -5 % of the puffer's body weight. If the puffer has not eaten in awhile, the stomach may have shrunken so I would use the lower range. Make the food more of a slushie or err more on the liquid side so it will not clog the feeding tube.
Do I get the tube at the LFS or hardware store?
A vet would have the tube. Fosters & Smith carries the red rubber catheters in the dog/cat catalog.
I still don't know what vitamins to use. Do the LF stores sell a liquid fish vitamin?
Selcon, Boyd's VitaChem, Ecosystem Garlic elixir are ones that I use. They are available at LFS and many on-line vendors.
Kelly
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Pufferpunk
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Posts: 32979
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
Gender: Female
My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles
Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:
Contact Pufferpunk

Post by Pufferpunk »

PQ, How often should she feed? I use 1 drop clove oil/cup of tank water--mix well. Have more fresh tank water in another bucket for the fish to wake up in. I do not know the effect of using CO daily for this kind of thing.

Kelly, are there any effects of using your tranq that often? I know my mom had several surgeries in 1 year & she became kinda loopy for a while.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Post by Puffer Queen »

I have sedated puffers daily for a week without adverse effect.
I also anesthetize children and have done so on a daily basis for prolonged periods without adverse effects. Metabolism rates of children are faster than adults and they also have "virgin" livers so they handle things better. I have a feeling that fish are similar based on my experiences/observations.

I would probably feed every 2 - 3 days.
Kelly
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