i know there is alot of debate as to whether figure eight puffers should be in freshwater or brackish water.
im considering setting up a 76 gallon tank for my figure eights, but was wondering what the possibility was of keeping them in freshwater and putting some plecos in there. I love my plecs as much as my puffers, and would love to have some plecos in there also, but realise that plecos cant cope with salt.
is this a totally bad idea? or is it reasonable?
figure eights in freshwater? with plecs?
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nmonks
- Mentor
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Also, while there are plecs that spend time / live their entire lives in slightly brackish water (likely below SG 1.005) the chances of you actually obtaining these species is very small.
If you want to keep a plec with a puffer, then a group of South American puffers makes a lot more sense. They get along well with robust plecs (I personally wouldn't trust them with whiptails with long "streamers" on their tail fins). Panaque, Ancistrus, Hypostomus, Otocinclus, etc., all seem to work well with SAPs.
Cheers,
Neale
If you want to keep a plec with a puffer, then a group of South American puffers makes a lot more sense. They get along well with robust plecs (I personally wouldn't trust them with whiptails with long "streamers" on their tail fins). Panaque, Ancistrus, Hypostomus, Otocinclus, etc., all seem to work well with SAPs.
Cheers,
Neale
A customer of mine who, for the most part, takes excellent care of her fish reported a life of three years with an F8 in freshwater. This is far less than there life expectancy. You can have both, but you will kill one variety in the process of trying to keep them together. There is no way around it.
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Norway Reef
- Puffer Fry
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I have seen Tetraodon biocellatus many times in Indonesia and have never studied one in brackish water, this species is freshwater period. That said, captive specimens do seem to appreciate slightly brackish water, however it's not to say they will need slightly brackish water. I keep my own figure 8 puffers in a freshwater aquarium and have pushed them slightly over the average wild life expectancy.
The difference seems to lay in the quality of the water. I use RO/DI water for my figure 8 tank and they have been in pristine health. When using tap water with some salt added, the quality of the water is obviously reduced but it seems to be that the salt (not the pH or hardness created by the mix) does somehow aid in the health of the fish to reasons not completely explained.
The difference seems to lay in the quality of the water. I use RO/DI water for my figure 8 tank and they have been in pristine health. When using tap water with some salt added, the quality of the water is obviously reduced but it seems to be that the salt (not the pH or hardness created by the mix) does somehow aid in the health of the fish to reasons not completely explained.
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Apocalyptictoast
- Dwarf Puffer
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Do you mind giving us the exact numbers for reference? I'm not doubting you, just curious.Norway Reef wrote:I keep my own figure 8 puffers in a freshwater aquarium and have pushed them slightly over the average wild life expectancy.
Fishkeeping has been around a relatively short time, especially for gathering a lot of info on long-lived fish. Their are probably only a few people here that have had puffers long enough to see them live their full potential life span, let alone multiple data sets with different living conditions.
I have wondered more than once if my puffers' action of pacing the glass is an attempt to find more preferred water conditions.
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Myaj
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I'm curious as well, what do you consider "slightly over the average wild life expectancy". Scratch that, what do you consider "average wild life expectancy"? Did you tag certain fish and follow them around for a few years to see how long they lived?
We should start some posts about the longest people have kept the various species alive in captivity. Its too bad there wasn't better puffer info around years ago, I know when I was in high school people thought it was great if you could keep one alive for 6 months or so.
That said.. I do believe Figure 8's are thought to do well in freshwater, as long as the pH and hardness are very high, similar to what you'd find in brackish water, without the salt. Don't quote me on that, and I don't know if its been verified...
We should start some posts about the longest people have kept the various species alive in captivity. Its too bad there wasn't better puffer info around years ago, I know when I was in high school people thought it was great if you could keep one alive for 6 months or so.
That said.. I do believe Figure 8's are thought to do well in freshwater, as long as the pH and hardness are very high, similar to what you'd find in brackish water, without the salt. Don't quote me on that, and I don't know if its been verified...
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messy_da_legend
- Figure 8 Puffer
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Surely some keen person with the knowhow could conduct an experiment with osmoregulation in figure 8s to work out when the ormoregulatory system is working most efficiently, therefore showing the correct salinity to keep the fish in in captivity.
Salinity also has an effect on the metabolism if euryhaline fish, but I dunno how that would affect figure 8s in a captive environment.
Salinity also has an effect on the metabolism if euryhaline fish, but I dunno how that would affect figure 8s in a captive environment.
Tom
1 x M. baileyi
1 x M. baileyi
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Norway Reef
- Puffer Fry
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Fish in aquariums SHOULD exceed average wild life expectancy. No competition.
If they do better in brackish(which you admitted), then how can you say that they are freshwater period. Just because YOU have never studied one in brackish water doesn't mean they are freshwater.
Not entirely true. While some captive freshwater and fish do exceed their natural lifespan the vast majority do not, no matter how ideal the aquarium is.
I said they do better in brackish water over freshwater tap, however, RO/DI freshwater is better than slightly brackish water from my findings.
In the wild these fish are freshwater, period. No scientific documentation will tell you otherwise.
Do you mind giving us the exact numbers for reference? I'm not doubting you, just curious.
Seems to be about 13 years, not 18 years as some people may tell you. I have kept mine for 13 years and they were about 2 years old when I got them (very accurate estimate).
If they do better in brackish(which you admitted), then how can you say that they are freshwater period. Just because YOU have never studied one in brackish water doesn't mean they are freshwater.
Not entirely true. While some captive freshwater and fish do exceed their natural lifespan the vast majority do not, no matter how ideal the aquarium is.
I said they do better in brackish water over freshwater tap, however, RO/DI freshwater is better than slightly brackish water from my findings.
In the wild these fish are freshwater, period. No scientific documentation will tell you otherwise.
Do you mind giving us the exact numbers for reference? I'm not doubting you, just curious.
Seems to be about 13 years, not 18 years as some people may tell you. I have kept mine for 13 years and they were about 2 years old when I got them (very accurate estimate).
I'm not sure your arguments on wild F8s are at all valid. An aquarium-kept fish is totally different specimen. It is never possible to fully replicate a wild environment in such a small space so all we try to do is the best for the fish.
Many people on this site alone have vast experience of keeping F8s in brackish water and they do that because they have found it to be the best AQUARIUM environment.
The original question was whether or not an F8 should be kept in freshwater in an aquarium. The answer to which seems to be a resounding "no." Whether or not they do best in freshwater in their natural environment is beside the point.
Many people on this site alone have vast experience of keeping F8s in brackish water and they do that because they have found it to be the best AQUARIUM environment.
The original question was whether or not an F8 should be kept in freshwater in an aquarium. The answer to which seems to be a resounding "no." Whether or not they do best in freshwater in their natural environment is beside the point.
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OraLacerta
- Former Staff Member
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Norway Reef:
We haven't just "heard" from some anonymous source that Figure Eights can live eighteen years in a brackish aquarium environment. Our own resident scientist, Robert T. Ricketts (RTR) has kept Figure Eights in many different levels of specific gravity and recommends keeping them in a specific gravity of 1.005. He kept one the longest (18 years) in 1.005 SG. He also reported that those kept in freshwater seemed to develop skin problems. I have heard, the same as Myaj, that it may be possible to keep Figure Eights in FW with high pH and high hardness, but as far as I know, no one has tested this for a long period of time.
The statement "this species is freshwater period" doesn't strike me as very scientific. I would love to get any information I can on this species (I keep two myself), but we need to be sure we are giving people the best advice we can, and right now RTR is our best rescource on this puffer. If you have done studies on keeping Figure Eights in an aquarium that counters RTR's research, then please provide all of the details for us so the staff can consider your studies and possibly revise the information we provide for this species. If you haven't please don't give people unfounded advice.
Indie:
As for keeping plecos and Figure Eights together: I really don't advise you do that. Why not, as suggested by nmonks, choose a FW puffer? That way you don't have to take a chance shortening the lifespans of your fish by putting them in an unsuitable environment, either by keeping Figure Eights in FW, or plecos in salt. SAPs are just as pretty as F8s, they are the same size, and they are suitable for that environment. I think that's a pretty good compromise.
We haven't just "heard" from some anonymous source that Figure Eights can live eighteen years in a brackish aquarium environment. Our own resident scientist, Robert T. Ricketts (RTR) has kept Figure Eights in many different levels of specific gravity and recommends keeping them in a specific gravity of 1.005. He kept one the longest (18 years) in 1.005 SG. He also reported that those kept in freshwater seemed to develop skin problems. I have heard, the same as Myaj, that it may be possible to keep Figure Eights in FW with high pH and high hardness, but as far as I know, no one has tested this for a long period of time.
The statement "this species is freshwater period" doesn't strike me as very scientific. I would love to get any information I can on this species (I keep two myself), but we need to be sure we are giving people the best advice we can, and right now RTR is our best rescource on this puffer. If you have done studies on keeping Figure Eights in an aquarium that counters RTR's research, then please provide all of the details for us so the staff can consider your studies and possibly revise the information we provide for this species. If you haven't please don't give people unfounded advice.
Indie:
As for keeping plecos and Figure Eights together: I really don't advise you do that. Why not, as suggested by nmonks, choose a FW puffer? That way you don't have to take a chance shortening the lifespans of your fish by putting them in an unsuitable environment, either by keeping Figure Eights in FW, or plecos in salt. SAPs are just as pretty as F8s, they are the same size, and they are suitable for that environment. I think that's a pretty good compromise.
-Michelle
Prevent unnecessary deaths due to disease- quarantine ALL new additions at least 4 weeks in a separate tank before adding to your main display tank!
Puffers: Hindenburg the Figure Eight, 75gallon Brackish
Prevent unnecessary deaths due to disease- quarantine ALL new additions at least 4 weeks in a separate tank before adding to your main display tank!
Puffers: Hindenburg the Figure Eight, 75gallon Brackish
With what additives? RO Right? Equilibrium? Buffers??Norway Reef wrote:I said they do better in brackish water over freshwater tap, however, RO/DI freshwater is better than slightly brackish water from my findings.
I don't believe anyone that claims to keep fish long term in straight RO/DI water. I tried to do this a long time ago w/ large frequent RO water changes. pH crashed in less than 2 months.