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Daddyo72 · Post by **Daddyo72** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:45 pm

I'm buying some Abei puffers. Will there be a problem with the salinity going from his 1 tsp per gallon to my completely freshwater aquarium?

Typically I chose the side of salt(a slight amount. 1 tbs per 5 gallons) as a great preventative action against disease/sickness and to aid osmoregulation, but I'm certain this doesn't apply to puffers.

I use salt in most of my tanks of big meanies and cannot remember when my guys have ever been sick. Its been a long time at the least.

Boxermom · Post by **Boxermom** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:52 pm

http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/salt.html

Daddyo72 · Post by **Daddyo72** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:10 pm

Very useful. Though I could and hundreds have, debated this topic of 'Salt or not to salt.' Some swear by it, others don't. Though I must say in conjunction with my weekly water changes of 50%, my need for over filtration, and salt, I've not had sick fish in years.

Check the definition of osmoregulation. Salt does help to regulate that. Its even more useful to sick fish.Anything that can be done to reduce stress (improper temps, removing threatening tank mates, water conditions, adding salt to regulate osmoregulation.) will help to nurse it back to health.

Keep in mind that filters don't remove debris from your tank. Only collect them. Unless you've got massive bio filtration(mine is a fluidized sand bed filter rated for 900 gallons) you've still got nitrites and nitrates circulating in your aquarium, adding to stress to get that can lead to fish illness.

This is all just from my perspective.

Boxermom · Post by **Boxermom** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:13 pm

Now don't you go getting all scientific-ey on me. :p Just putting it out there for your consideration. Chat it up with RTR sometime.

Post by **Pufferpunk** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:01 am

my weekly water changes of 50%, my need for over filtration

I'd say that's why you have such healthy fish, not the addition of salt.

Post by **RTR** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:18 am

I am pretty well versed in osmosis, osmotic pressure effects, and osmoregulation, and would love to know how sodium chloride regulates that. Tell us, please.

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:33 am

Lets not get into this again...

Post by **Pufferpunk** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:55 am

Why not--it's interesting.

Woland · Post by **Woland** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:06 am

Indeed!

On a side note; Daddyo72, do you plan to keep the T. abei together in one tank?

The Fisherman · Post by **The Fisherman** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:34 pm

Pufferpunk wrote:Why not--it's interesting.

Yes, I agree that it is interesting. Just as long as it doesn't turn into a flame war. Thats kinda what happend last time if I remember correctly.

Daddyo72 · Post by **Daddyo72** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:33 pm

RTR wrote:I am pretty well versed in osmosis, osmotic pressure effects, and osmoregulation, and would love to know how sodium chloride regulates that. Tell us, please.

I can be just as sarcastic as you. I find this an interesting topic but if your going to take that tone with me then I won't waste my time trying to win a petty ****ing contest.

To answer you question, Salt concentration in the water affects the cells' ability both to retain water or to expel water. Salt concentration in the water greatly effects this. Fish have specialized cells in their gills to take salts in such as your CHLORIDE that is removed from their bodies constantly.

Adding salt to the water means the fish doesn't need to work as hard to balance what? Osmoregulation. Water passing over a semi permeable membrane....the process to keep it from exploding osmoregulation? Remember? Yep thats the one.

Remember? FW fish are saltier than the water around them? Salt added as a comfort factor SAFELY BTW causes their bodies to not work as hard.

Daddyo72 · Post by **Daddyo72** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:42 pm

I'm well aware of your qualifications RTR and am certain I have much I can learn from you. But.....Even among the Experts the is one of the HUGEST debates among fish keepers. Don't take a matter of fact condescending tone with me.

Woland. I've no plans to keep them together. I've a fish room equipped with more tanks on a ground level than most sane people like to admit to. My 30+ years of experience has given me a passion for a great variety of fish......but I still detest African cichlids.

Post by **RTR** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:41 am

This is not a contest, only an effort to see fact, not mythology. I do not see an explanation of how sodium cloride regulates osmotic balance in a fish. It was my understanding that there is a lot more to it than that. Do you have any valid reference showing that increased salt concentrations in general (regardless of the TDS, GH, KH, etc of the source water for the tank?) have a positive effect on the metabolisn and or osmotic balance of FW fish? I think that is a fair question. I did not question what osmosis is, or whether or not FW fish have ion transort mechanisms, or that their body fluids are higher in mineral content that the water in which they live in the wild and in tanks - those are all real and verifiable. I asked one question, and it was not answered. And I did so intentionally, as I consider your original premise to be in error, and misleading to those without the background to see ithe issues involved with what appears to be baseless hobby mythology. If you don't have the answer, fine. we will drop it. If you have the answer, I would like to see it. But I will not accept your position without proof or at least strong supporting evidence.

Daddyo72 · Post by **Daddyo72** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:08 pm

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml
http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/RedDrumPhysiology.htm
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... cle_id=335

The rest you can goggle yourself. There are dozens of links. The last is skeptical as you are. As I said its a very highly debated topic.

On the same topic, do you have proof that dispels documented scientific fact? What bothers me is that your either don't understand the role salt plays in osmoregulation (which is scary in itself) or your being obtuse. Making me do the leg work for proof of a scientifically fact.

Post by **RTR** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:22 pm

Your first reference quotes me extensively and is not favorable overall to the use of salt routinely. On that WetmanNY and I agreed. This neither supports your contention nor explains how salt regulates osmotic balance in FW fish.

The second ref is not a FW example. Such fish are not by anyone's definition FW.

The last ref does not support your position either, but is to my reading closer to my own position than yours.

Although the Skeptical Aquarist is an excellent site and the author did a lot of research for it, even as a review article it is not peer-reviewed and a valid ref. Neither is PFM, whatever its value. Only the second article is valid in that sense, and it does not apply to this discussion as it does deakl with a FW fish.

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