After obtaining permission, here is the exchange via PM about marine velvet so all can learn/share/benefit:
Hi Puffer Queen! Pufferpunk recommended I speak with you regarding marine velvet. My porcupine puffer (Phillip) has just recently started showing signs of the disease. He has little gold spots that look like dust covering his entire body and I'm not sure what to do. Pufferpunk recommended that I treat with copper, but she said you would know more about it.
Between this and another forum I have gotten very conflicting advice regarding the use of copper (in my case, cupramine). Some have told me that it will kill Phillip if I put him in QT with cupramine for the 10 days required, while others say it won't harm him as long as I monitor the copper level (yes, I do have a copper kit and I have successfully used cupramine on my yellow tang). I understand that because puffers are scaleless, they are more sensitive to copper.
Is there another way to treat velvet without copper? I've slowly been dropping the salinity of my tank down over the past few days (right now it's SG is at 1.016). I gave Phillip a FW dip but it didn't seem to do much good. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Incidently, I also have a full grown GSP in the same tank, but he has yet to show signs. I'll probably need to treat him too.
Thanks in advance,
Dan
Dan,
The ONLY proven treatment for velvet is copper. Hyposalinity WILL NOT eradicate amyloodinium ocellatum. There are many parasites out there (many have yet to be named), hyposalinity ONLY works on ich (cryptocaryon irritans). Copper will work on both ich and velvet. Cupramine is my "copper of choice".
Velvet moves faster than ich and can kill in less than two days - start treatment ASAP. I have used copper on puffers for 15 years without problems - for some reason, this site in many threads will say it "kills puffers".......any thing added to the tank can kill when not properly monitored (iodine, salt, antibiotics) - also take into account that probably close to half of the fish we treat are already "behind the eight ball" and have a very limited chance at recovery.
Please start cupramine in a separate bare bottom tank with No live rock, sand or any porous decorations. No carbon, UV , ozone or protein skimmer. Follow the directions on the bottle and monitor copper levels with the seachem copper test kit.
Monitor water parameters closely. Make sure you have the tank well aerated and use a cycled HOB filter, canister filter, air driven sponge filter but NO live rock or sand. Do NOT add other additives like amquel or products that block ammonia but instead do water changes if water parameters become out of normal. Treat ALL fish in with the porcupine. The display tank needs to be fishless (may leave rock, sand, inverts, algae in tank) for at least 8 weeks. Velvet has a longer life cycle than ich.
Make sure to feed beta glucan and vitamins to boost the puffer's immune system.
Best of luck.
Kelly
Thanks Kelly! I really appreciate your help!
I'm starting to think it may not be velvet. He's got the spots, which look like every description of velvet (tiny, goldish colored spots covering his entire body which look like dust - most noticeably around the fins and gills), but he's not showing any major signs (lethargy, scratching, loss of appetite, etc.). If anything, he seems happy and more active than I've seen him in recent days. He's eating well, swimming around, and constantly begging for food. He's been covered in these spots for four days now - and from my understanding, if it was velvet, it should have killed him by now. I'm at a total loss... the spots are smaller than ich (I've had fun dealing with that in the past), so I think I can safely rule that out. Any ideas?
Do you think I should still treat with copper? My quarantine tank is ready to go and I have a bottle of cupramine on hand. I'm thinking that if it is some kind of parasite, the copper should take care of it.
Thanks again for your help. I really appreciate it!
Dan
I would absolutely treat with cupramine.
The natural life cycle of any parasite is that it feeds for a few days off of the fish (visible spots), then drops off to become developing cysts - takes a few days and then hatches into MANY free swimming parasites looking for a host to continue its life cycle. The parasite is still present/lurking and ready to take out a fish in the future.
The puffer may have a limited immunity for this parasite and is able to "DEAL" with it for short duration or "minor" infestation - this does cause stress which will impair the immune system and leave the puffer to become impaired, vulnerable to opportunistic pathogens -
Can you or will you allow me to post these PM in my forum "Disease, Health & Wellness" - http://www.marinedepot.com/forums so all can learn/benefit from this exchange.
Thanks - best of luck.
Kelly
Thanks again Kelly.
I will transfer my two puffers into quarantine ASAP and treat with cupramine. Also, you may certainly post these messages wherever you think they may benefit other people.
Once again, thank you for all your help (my puffers thank you too!)!
Dan
Dust?
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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Thanks to you Kelly, my ideas on that are changing.for some reason, this site in many threads will say it "kills puffers"
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Puffer Queen
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Pufferpunk
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- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
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Here's a quick update...
I've QT the fish and have begun administering cupramine. So far, they've had no adverse reactions to the copper, and outside of being a little annoyed with me for capturing and quarantining them, they seem fine.
This morning however, I could not get either puffer to eat. I don't know if they were protesting the quarantine or what, but I've never seen them turn down food. Water params weren't great in the quarantine tanks this morning (no surprises there), so I did a water change and tested the copper levels before coming in to work (good thing my boss wasn't here to see how late I was
).
My porc doesn't look any better as of yet, in fact he might look a little worse. My GSP still has no signs. Granted, it's been less than 24 hours since I administered the cupramine...
Anyway, I appreciate everyone's help. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again,
Dan
I've QT the fish and have begun administering cupramine. So far, they've had no adverse reactions to the copper, and outside of being a little annoyed with me for capturing and quarantining them, they seem fine.
This morning however, I could not get either puffer to eat. I don't know if they were protesting the quarantine or what, but I've never seen them turn down food. Water params weren't great in the quarantine tanks this morning (no surprises there), so I did a water change and tested the copper levels before coming in to work (good thing my boss wasn't here to see how late I was
).My porc doesn't look any better as of yet, in fact he might look a little worse. My GSP still has no signs. Granted, it's been less than 24 hours since I administered the cupramine...
Anyway, I appreciate everyone's help. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again,
Dan
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Puffer Queen
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Jeni,
Here is a link to the MACNA speaker bio:
http://www.macnaxviii.com/speakers/view ... p?sp_id=17
In the past, there have been videos/cd available - not sure if Houston will produce them or not....I'd recommend contacting someone on their MACNA website.
Here is a link to the MACNA speaker bio:
http://www.macnaxviii.com/speakers/view ... p?sp_id=17
In the past, there have been videos/cd available - not sure if Houston will produce them or not....I'd recommend contacting someone on their MACNA website.
Kelly
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Dan,
Not unusual for the fish to look initially worse due to the stress of capture, new tank, disease process and medications.
Copper can affect the fish's appetite - as does stress, illness ...I wouldn't change anything yet.
Thanks for the update.
Not unusual for the fish to look initially worse due to the stress of capture, new tank, disease process and medications.
Copper can affect the fish's appetite - as does stress, illness ...I wouldn't change anything yet.
Thanks for the update.
Last edited by Puffer Queen on Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kelly
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Puffer Queen
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I posted my pm/exchange/thread on my forum @ http://www.marinedepot.com and will share information that is posted on it as well.
Here is a great piece of information:
As a 'friendly addition' to these exchanges I would caution readers that the Seachem Copper Test kit has had problems in the recent past. They packaged the 'powder' chemical in the test with a chemical that was good at the time, but near its life limit. While the test kits were distributed and stocked, this chemical expired and gave incorrect copper results (too low) causing mis-dosing.
Those using this test kit must be sure to only use Seachem test kits distributed AFTER the first quarter of this year. If there is any doubt, don't use it.
A suitable alternative is the Salifert Copper Test kit. It is easier to read and reliable in the case of Cupramine. What it suffers is no indication of copper between 0.5 and 1.0 ppm. Not particularly good if the hobbyist is aiming for 0.6 ppm. However, dilutions with non-copper containing salt water can manipulate the test to give readings in this range.
BUT. . .it really isn't necessary to need to have readings between 0.5 and 1.0 ppm copper. I have found that Cupramine treatment to be effective against Marine Ich and Marine Velvet in concentration readings of copper at 0.3 ppm with the Salifert test kit. So if the Salifert test kit is used and the aquarist verifies a reading of 0.5 ppm, that will be suitable.
Lee
Best of luck Dan and puffers!
Here is a great piece of information:
As a 'friendly addition' to these exchanges I would caution readers that the Seachem Copper Test kit has had problems in the recent past. They packaged the 'powder' chemical in the test with a chemical that was good at the time, but near its life limit. While the test kits were distributed and stocked, this chemical expired and gave incorrect copper results (too low) causing mis-dosing.
Those using this test kit must be sure to only use Seachem test kits distributed AFTER the first quarter of this year. If there is any doubt, don't use it.
A suitable alternative is the Salifert Copper Test kit. It is easier to read and reliable in the case of Cupramine. What it suffers is no indication of copper between 0.5 and 1.0 ppm. Not particularly good if the hobbyist is aiming for 0.6 ppm. However, dilutions with non-copper containing salt water can manipulate the test to give readings in this range.
BUT. . .it really isn't necessary to need to have readings between 0.5 and 1.0 ppm copper. I have found that Cupramine treatment to be effective against Marine Ich and Marine Velvet in concentration readings of copper at 0.3 ppm with the Salifert test kit. So if the Salifert test kit is used and the aquarist verifies a reading of 0.5 ppm, that will be suitable.
Lee
Best of luck Dan and puffers!
Kelly
Thanks again Puffer Queen. I'm really grateful that you and Pufferpunk have been helping me out so much.
I do have another question though... when I'm done with the copper treatments (I know... this is way to early to be discussing - they've got almost two weeks to go), what's the easiest way to get my puffers back into their tank without introducing the copper water? I know I can't net my puffers, and I don't want to expose them to air. Should I just stick the charcoal filter back in and let it run for a few days? Would that effectively remove the cupramine from the water? Thanks again!
BTW, I clicked on your bio. Pretty impressive, and that is one big puffer you're feeding! Very cool!!
Dan
I do have another question though... when I'm done with the copper treatments (I know... this is way to early to be discussing - they've got almost two weeks to go), what's the easiest way to get my puffers back into their tank without introducing the copper water? I know I can't net my puffers, and I don't want to expose them to air. Should I just stick the charcoal filter back in and let it run for a few days? Would that effectively remove the cupramine from the water? Thanks again!
BTW, I clicked on your bio. Pretty impressive, and that is one big puffer you're feeding! Very cool!!
Dan
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Puffer Queen... you must have read my mind. I just took some pictures to post (this way I can be 100% sure its velvet). Sadly, my porc is looking a lot worse tonight and the spots have gotten much bigger (he now looks like he has acne). Take a look below...
I'm hoping you'll tell me that the sores that are now appearing all over his body are a result of the copper doing its job. He has become very lethargic and I still can't get him to eat. Water parems were awful when I got home from work (ammonia - 1.0, nitrite - .5, nitrate - 20, pH - 7.2!!). The joys of an uncycled quarantine tank.
I did a full water change (seeded with water from the main tank - it's pH had dropped too) and boosted the pH back up to normal (after the water change of course... I didn't want to toxify the ammonia). I also tested and added more cupramine (the levels are at .3). Phil was a little more active afterwords, but was still hovering at the bottom of the tank. Poor guy.
Would it be okay to treat the water with Prime? I recall you didn't think I should use ammonia removing products while he was being quarantined, but I'll need to do something while I'm at work tomorrow. Thank God, it's a three day weekend coming up. I hope he's strong enough to pull through this...
Anyway, thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate it.
Dan
I'm hoping you'll tell me that the sores that are now appearing all over his body are a result of the copper doing its job. He has become very lethargic and I still can't get him to eat. Water parems were awful when I got home from work (ammonia - 1.0, nitrite - .5, nitrate - 20, pH - 7.2!!). The joys of an uncycled quarantine tank.
I did a full water change (seeded with water from the main tank - it's pH had dropped too) and boosted the pH back up to normal (after the water change of course... I didn't want to toxify the ammonia). I also tested and added more cupramine (the levels are at .3). Phil was a little more active afterwords, but was still hovering at the bottom of the tank. Poor guy.
Would it be okay to treat the water with Prime? I recall you didn't think I should use ammonia removing products while he was being quarantined, but I'll need to do something while I'm at work tomorrow. Thank God, it's a three day weekend coming up. I hope he's strong enough to pull through this...
Anyway, thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate it.
Dan
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Puffer Queen
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Dan,
I am having a hard time appreciating the "acne" spots - what I am seeing is a blotchy/stressed puffer.....the water parameters could definitely have caused the blotching and these swings in water parameters can directly impact the outcome of the puffer.
Increase aeration more - add more air stones, power heads, etc.
Here are some excerpts from another thread in my forum by a very knowledgeable biologist Lee:
"Amquel and the newer product, AcclimMAX are good products. However, their value lies in their addition to bag-water fish arrive in that have been in that water for some time. They remove the deadly and benign types of ammonia without a shift in pH. Then the bag water may be pH adjusted for the initial acclimation to the QT water without fear of the deadly ammonia appearing."
"It is not appropriate to use these products in a display aquarium. It is also not advised to use these products in a QT water since they can and do actually interfere with medications, disease/affliction treatments, and other water treatments. "
Lee
AND some more:
"Some medications are organic compounds containing ammonia or ammonia-like radicals. The ammonia 'attackers' don't know the good guys from the bad guys. The way some of the Amquel-like products work is to degrade the ammonia or complex with it to render it a harmless alternative molecule. This they can also do to organic medications."
What type of filtration do you have on the display system?
I am having a hard time appreciating the "acne" spots - what I am seeing is a blotchy/stressed puffer.....the water parameters could definitely have caused the blotching and these swings in water parameters can directly impact the outcome of the puffer.
Increase aeration more - add more air stones, power heads, etc.
Here are some excerpts from another thread in my forum by a very knowledgeable biologist Lee:
"Amquel and the newer product, AcclimMAX are good products. However, their value lies in their addition to bag-water fish arrive in that have been in that water for some time. They remove the deadly and benign types of ammonia without a shift in pH. Then the bag water may be pH adjusted for the initial acclimation to the QT water without fear of the deadly ammonia appearing."
"It is not appropriate to use these products in a display aquarium. It is also not advised to use these products in a QT water since they can and do actually interfere with medications, disease/affliction treatments, and other water treatments. "
Lee
AND some more:
"Some medications are organic compounds containing ammonia or ammonia-like radicals. The ammonia 'attackers' don't know the good guys from the bad guys. The way some of the Amquel-like products work is to degrade the ammonia or complex with it to render it a harmless alternative molecule. This they can also do to organic medications."
What type of filtration do you have on the display system?
Kelly
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Pufferpunk
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- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
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I think the sores and blotchiness are directly related to the parasite (although the poor water quality I'm sure didn't help). Each sore completely surrounds the gold spots I was seeing before hand (unfortunately, they didn't come out very well in the picture). Sadly, he didn't look like this before I put him in the quarantine tank.
The water in the quarantine tank plummeted while I was at work yesterday (especially the pH). I tested it before I moved the puffer into the tank and it was fine, but unfortunately, I work up to 10 hours a day, and could not monitor the conditions while I was away. I knew there'd be problems... my quarantine tank is not cycled (incidently, do you think Bio-Spira would help with this?). Fortunately, my girlfriend is only working a half day today, so she will monitor until I get home, and I have a three day weekend, so I can monitor regularly through Tuesday morning.
My puff did respond better after I changed the water. Late last night he was swimming around and acting more normal. He was doing the same thing this morning, although he doesn't look any better. I did another water change this morning just to be on the safe side.
I have plenty of airstones on hand and will add a couple more today. I think it'll help with his morale... he loves swimming through the bubbles. Are there any other thoughts on how I can make him less stressed?
Thanks again,
Dan
The water in the quarantine tank plummeted while I was at work yesterday (especially the pH). I tested it before I moved the puffer into the tank and it was fine, but unfortunately, I work up to 10 hours a day, and could not monitor the conditions while I was away. I knew there'd be problems... my quarantine tank is not cycled (incidently, do you think Bio-Spira would help with this?). Fortunately, my girlfriend is only working a half day today, so she will monitor until I get home, and I have a three day weekend, so I can monitor regularly through Tuesday morning.
My puff did respond better after I changed the water. Late last night he was swimming around and acting more normal. He was doing the same thing this morning, although he doesn't look any better. I did another water change this morning just to be on the safe side.
I have plenty of airstones on hand and will add a couple more today. I think it'll help with his morale... he loves swimming through the bubbles. Are there any other thoughts on how I can make him less stressed?
Thanks again,
Dan