Advice needed for ich treatment

[Puffer Queen]

Parasites require a fish to continue their life cycle - no fish and the parasite dies off. By keeping the damsels in with the live rock - the parasites can continue their life cycle.

I would wait till tomorrow & try to remove them....this only "delays" the waiting period another day. You have gone through all the trouble at this point - why turn back ? Go to sleep - you are frustrated & nothing good ever happens when one is in this state.

Just because you don't see the classic spots doesn't mean there isn't parasites. Parasites can live in the gills as well. Some fish can develop a limited immunity to parasites - that is they can still be a host for the parasite but don't become sick or ill from the parasite until their immune system is altered or impaired.

[Snausy]

I posted that before reading PQ's latest reply.

Now I have to take out all the sand as well. *sigh* More rock moving, more killing. I can't just dump the sand on top of the rock in the rubbermaid.

I'm considering going to buy a 60 and using it as a sump afterwards. That way I can look in and see what's going on in there.

I'm pretty sure it's ich pufferqueen as it's come and gone a couple times on the fins. Wouldn't you say that's a good indicator? How else would I know for sure?

The only symptoms I've seen are the classic ich. white spots in fins and on body that come and go and fish trying to scratch against rocks.

Would you suggest I treat with copper just to be sure?

Oh and thx for that bit of advice. I'm definately going to bed.

[Pufferpunk]

I wouldn't use copper in your main tank.

[Snausy]

ok so I'll just hypo and hope for the best.

Thx again for all the help. It's like a fish addiction support group.....TO KEEP THE ADDICTION GOING! MUHAHAHAH

[Puffer Queen]

When I treat with copper or hyposalinity, I always treat in a separate bare bottom tank. Moving rock & substrate is too much work for me.

How deep is your substrate? I would just place the sand in buckets with a little water & an air stone or a low flow pump.

From what you are describing, my first guess would have to be ich. Marine velvet doesn't usually come & go. Fish develop symptoms quickly and can die quickly without treatment.

Much controversy on treating main tank and potential lingering copper in tank. Many threads, studies - bottom line....if you treat the main tank with copper and you may use this tank for inverts in the future....don't dose the live rock & sand. After treatment, large water change. Add carbon (change frequently) and wait at least a month. If you want to add inverts. Do another water change, change carbon & check the copper level with the appropriate test kit for the type of copper you used.

Acclimate the invert slowly & remove at the first sign of stress. I will tell you that I regularly dosed a large tank from 1996 - 1997 with copper. It has been up & running with regular water changes and carbon. I have inverts, amphiphods, gammarus and macroalgae flourishing in this system for 8+ years.

[Pufferpunk]

Thanks for all the great info--I'm really learning a lot here!

[Snausy]

Thanks for all the great info--I'm really learning a lot here!

You and me both pp

Well I got some good rest but woke up with a feeling of unfinished business.

Pufferqueen I now know what you mean when you say moving the rock and substrate is too much work for you. I only have a half inch of crushed coral so it would all fit in a bucket this time but I call this learning the hard way.

In the future(hopefully I never have to but if I do) I'll be using a separate 60 gallon tank for treating the fish and leave everything else to just continue on as if nothing is wrong. Catching my big fish(puff, tusk, trigger) is easy. The damsels not so much. No wonder they are all still alive in that tank. Not even the trigger/tusk can catch them so it's no wonder why I'm having trouble.

I'm only going to hypo it this time but if I needed to use meds it would be much cheaper with the smaller volume.

I'm still thinking I might just get the tank today, move the fish in and move all the LR back in the main tank. I'm going to be moving it all anyway trying to catch those little damsels.

I need a sump for this tank anyway so it makes sense in my mind.

Moving all that LR with all the snails and crabs and life on it is just so stressful.

What's funny is at the LFS where I got my LR there was a single solitary blue damsel in there with the LR. He's been in that LR tank for a couple months and now I know why.

[Snausy]

Hi guys, just an update and a couple questions.

Well I bought a 50 at petsmart(120 bucks) and I'm at 1.009 in it with all the fish and some rocks from an old FW tank.

I'm doing about 30% changes daily with them as I have no bio filtration in the QT tank. WC and "prime" added with them should keep that tank ok for four weeks I'm hoping. A big powerhead to circulate and airate/add bubbles and disturb surface.

Moved all the LR from the rubbermaid back in main tank so now the display tank is back to normal minus the fish. In 4 weeks it should be free of ich without any hosts and ready to go.

One question I have is should I feed my hermit crabs anything while the fish are in another tank? Will they all just start cannibalizing each other?

I'm also debating with myself over how much to feed the fish. Feeding the fish(not puffer who's schedule will remain the same) daily will reduce aggression. If I wait a day or two the trigger starts going after the damsels.

Conversely feeding this much will lower water quality in the QT tank. I guess daily/ever other day WC would reduce this to no big deal?

I'll monitor PH daily as PQ suggested and buffer it as necessary. What's optimal PH for a marine tank anyway?

One last question: in four weeks can I increase the SG from 1.009 to 1.023 in 10-24 hours just as I dropped it? I remember .002 a week regarding nitrifying bacteria but I guess the fish can go up to 1.023 as fast as they came down from it?

One silver lining is that this ordeal is forcing me to make a nice sump/skimmer for the tank instead of trying to just get by with the minimum stuff(MCE600). The 50 long will be perfect for a sump after this is over.

[Pufferpunk]

Well I bought a 50 at petsmart(120 bucks)

This is gonna kill ya--Petco is having a $1/gallon sale right now!

One question I have is should I feed my hermit crabs anything while the fish are in another tank? Will they all just start cannibalizing each other?

I believe they will. Drop in an algae wafer every couple of days.

What's optimal PH for a marine tank anyway?

8.2-8.3

[Snausy]

ARGH! If they have that sale at my local petco(three blocks away) I'll buy one then take the petsmart one back after moving everyone over(still have receipt). I wanted the black and all they had was fake oak anyway.

Thx for the other info. I think I see the crabs ganging up on each other. Will crabs eat snails?

[Puffer Queen]

Some crabs do eat or just kill the snail for its shell.

Definitely drop in some pellet food or flake every 2 - 4 days for them.

Snausy, what type of filtration do you have on the display tank? Maintaining feeding and water quality in a QT without filtration is going to be difficult. The key to any treatment is to reduce stress on the fish.

Dropping the salinity can be done safely in under 24 hours - raising it should be done slower - over 2-3 days.

[Snausy]

well currently I have the ehiem wet/dry canister on the display tank full of all the LR and critters.

The QT has two AC power heads to keep the surface moving.

I'm confused about bio. I dropped my SG to 1.009 in 24 hours and that would kill any nitrifying bacteria in my wet/dry or any other established bio filter....would it not?

How can I have bio in the QT when it's @ 1.009 if my wet/dry and LR is all "set" at 1.023? I don't have any brackish tanks to steal media from.

I figure a 50% water-change every other day with PRIME added would keep the water quality decent enough. Is that not right?

I fully realize I need to do testing to know for sure and am/will but assumptions/suggestions/knowledge would be most welcome.

On a good note the ich seems to be falling off my fish and they seem much happier and very healthy at 1.009. I just have to keep my PH in control. The Harley tusk especially is much better off than he was two days ago.

The puffer blinking I was talking about only happens once in a blue moon. In fact I've only seen him do it twice total.

[Puffer Queen]

Wet/dry filters, biowheels, air driven sponge filters all can survive hyposalinity It is the live rock that has microfauna - worms, pods, etc that CAN NOT survive the hyposalinity. I have been using hyposalinity for over 10 years with the above mentioned filtration.

Using products like prime can interfere/alter some test kit readings for ammonia & nitrite so I wouldn't put much stock in the readings if you are using a product to bind or decrease the ammonia levels.

The natural cycle of ich is that the parasite lives/feeds off the fish for 2 - 5 days and then falls off naturally. It then continues it life cycle by being a cyst waiting to hatch into many free swimming parasites. The hyposalinity does most of its "killing" of the parasite in the free swimming stage.

Really try to add some type of biological filtration other than live rock or sand - it will help decrease the stress caused by the swings in water parameters and ultimately will affect the cure/survival of the fish.

Best of luck.

[Snausy]

you say "other than the LR". I don't have LR in the low salinity tank of course. All the LR is in the display now with the sand and crabs/snails at 1.023.

The QT is bare bottom with a couple pieces of old rock from a freshwater tank for cover.

So would you suggest I take the ehiem wet/dry off the display and put it on the QT? Putting the wet/dry on a 1.009 tank if it's "established" at 1.023 isn't going to kill all the nitrifying bacteria in it?

I suppose I don't need it on the display at the moment because all the fish and their bio-load are in the QT.

Please confirm this and I'll do it asap. If that's the case having the wet/dry canister is perfect for this application. I just figured it would kill all the beneficial bacteria.

Thanks again.

[Puffer Queen]

Definitely move the cannister filter over to the QT.

Make sure to monitor water parameters at least daily and add buffer/perform water changes as needed to keep pH up and water conditions pristine.

Best of luck.