Advice needed for ich treatment

[Snausy]

Hi guys, unfortunately my S&S puffer/Harlequin Tusk/Niger Trigger tank has developed ich.

I added a niger trigger and it's been an awesome addition overall as they all get along well(so far) but I didn't have a QT tank and thought I could just get away with adding him, rolling the dice....and I crapped out.

Rookie mistake that won't happen again!

Anyway, ok...here I am. I love my tank, REALLY love the fish in it and need to figure the fix. I've read the ICH articles and knowing that there is live rock in the tank I can't copper. I'll have to remove the fish and QT them in hyposalinity for 4 weeks. The lack of fish in the main tank should take care of the ich as they won't have a host to continue the life cycle.

My main concern at this point is aggression with my fish in a small QT tank. I currently have a 20 gallon but I'm thinking I should get a 50 gallon tank as well to seperate the three big fish up.

They all get along well with one another atm. The trigger was added last so he isn't aggressive at all. The puffer ignores him and the tusk but I'm afraid of what would happen in a small tank(I've seen the puff bite another dogface just because the dogface was crowding his space too much during feeding. He doesn't like to be crowded.)

So I have options:

All in the 20 to make it easy and monitor aggression.(actually think this might work. They all spend most of the day together in that same amount of space in the big tank anyway)

puffer in 50 3/4 full of water and the two other fish in the 20?

Puffer, harley in the 50, trigger in the 20?

All in the 50?

What would you guys do? I wish they all could just go in the 20.

I also have a rubbermaid 35 gallon that I used to mix water in. Maybe I could just use that instead of buying the 50?

I need to start this but want a bit of direction. The fish have to be in these small tanks for 4 weeks and I want it to work. If I put the puffer in a non-see thru glass tank(rubbermaid) for 4 weeks will he go crazy?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

I'm starting to lean toward putting everything in the 20(yes they fit) and closely monitoring what goes on. I have some big rocks to give shelter.

[Pufferpunk]

I'm not sure this would work, but what if you move all the LR into the QT & hypo the main tank?

[Snausy]

oh that's a great idea!

I have a small layer of crushed coral substratebut I'll just leave it.

I can get the LR all in the rubbermaid easy.

Plus I have the ehiem wet/dry running on the main tank already. Everything just got a little brighter.

EDIT: Is there any reason I can't just hypo the main tank and be done with it? It's not like I have any corals in there.

Why am I taking out the LR if I'm not going to copper? I forget if I learned this already. Not enough sleep last night.

Will the LR survive being hypo'd?

[Pufferpunk]

I was concerned about that. The live bacteria in the LR will die off.

[Snausy]

one final question for the moment:

How quickly can I drop the SG in the main tank once the LR is out? I'm at .023 and I need to get it down to .009. How quickly can I do that without hurting the fish/inverts that stay?

I suppose I should get as much of that substrate in the other tank with the LR as well.

[Pufferpunk]

http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/vie ... php?t=4576
Any further questions, I'd contact the author, Puffer Queen.

[Snausy]

yes I read that article. Did I miss the part about how quickly you can drop the SG to 1.009?

thx for link anyway.

[Puffer Queen]

You can safely drop the salinity over 10 - 24 hours. Just watch for stress.

[petebsbll]

The reason behind trying to remove as much substrate/live rock while treating is so the parasites have a harder time multiplying. From what I understand they enjoy getting down inside of sand beds and live rock. Your best bet would be to remove the live rock and some of the substrate and put it into the rubbermaid container. Treat the live rock as if it were fish though be very careful with it. Make sure you have some type of hangon filter running with the live rock and possibly a snap on light. I would go ahead and not try to move all your fish into a small aquarium. This will cause a lot of stress on the fish which could lead to more aggresive behavior. What size is your display tank? I would avoid freshwater bath's unless it really turns into a bad case of ich, atleast from my personal experience this seemed to lead to more stress although from what I read they do seem very effective for quick relief of parasites. Make sure your water quality is good as well, if you dont have test kits for the ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and ph get them. Also if you do treat with copper be very very cautious as its poison to the fish and very powerful. Use very small amounts and purchase a copper test kit as well. Slowly increasing your aquariums water tempature will also help speed up the process of eliminating the parasite.

Watch the water levels closely..

Hope this helps a little

-Peter

[Puffer Queen]

I would not raise the temperature of the tank. Raising the temperature decreases the oxygen saturation/available oxygen. Fish with ich have increase metabolic rates and increased oxygen needs. The parasites are in the gills as well and can impair the fish's ability to "breathe".
!
Raising the temp does not eliminate the parasite, it may shorten the life cycle by a day or two but does not warrant the risk of suffocating/stressing the fish.
Best of luck.

[petebsbll]

Very true.. thank you for the correction puffer queen. Look at your aquarium to see what its temp is at right now. You may want to add a few air stones to the aquarium to allow for easier breathing if their gills are indeed covered already.

[Snausy]

Thank you very much for the replies.

I was wondering about maybe using copper to speed up the process but if hypo'ing them all works just as well why risk the poison.

There are a few crabs/snails left in the display tank. Can they handle the 1.009 or should I get them all out asap?

You guys rock. The fish might be stressed but I'm much less so with all your input.

[Puffer Queen]

Hyposalinity only works on ich. It will not work on the many other (some not officially named) parasites. If you are sure it is ich and not marine velvet which is only cured with copper, hyposalinity would be fine.

Make sure you have a refractometer to maintain steady (non fluctuating) salinity. Fluctuating levels will influence whether the parasitic life cycle will be stopped/eliminated. Monitor water parameters (salinity, ammonia, nitrite & pH) at least daily - pH can drop drastically with hyposalinity. Frequent water changes and buffer additions may be needed.

All live rock, sand and inverts should be removed. Hyposalinity will kill the crabs and will kill off the microfauna on the rock and sand. This will cause problems with maintaining water quality. If one is trying to treat with copper - this is dangerous as both can absorb and release copper....thus a potential for low levels one moment and toxic the next.

Copper does not "speed up" the process. Just another method of treatment that does kill more types of parasites. Copper treatment is shorter than hyposalinity. Both have their risks/benefits like anything we do to our tanks - i.e adding iodine supplements can kill when not dosed/monitored correctly.

[Pufferpunk]

Is it true that if you treat your main tank w/copper, you may never safely be able keep any inverts in there again?

[Snausy]

well I put all the LR in the rubbermaid and THOUGHT I did a good job checking the rock.

However two very small(1 inch) yellowtail-blue damsels somehow got through my high security screening.

Should I get them out at all costs?

The damsels never showed any signs of ich. They never had white spots and they never showed any hyper behavior, scratching their backs etc.

I pulled out all the rock and put it back THREE TIMES!!! argh!!! Finally I gave up trying to find them. I hate to think of how much life I killed on that rock looking for those damn damsels.

I realize that having fish in there will give ich a place to go to continue the cycle but is it possible the damsels are too hardy and will just deny the ich? They seemed to so far.

two very small damsels that never showed the ich are in the rubbermaid. I know how this defeats the purpose but I'm so frustrated atm.

What would you suggest?

I can hypo the ich in the main tank now but I wonder if those two little damsels that I don't even care about will just bring it all back in a month.

Even if I don't put the damsels back in there will be ich on the LR, yes? ARGHHH!!