lol... talking about poop... this is wonderful.
And sorry about thePrime, I've just always aged my water... Like to be safe than sorry... Been sorry too many times, lol.
My Betta is sick again
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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stevehelium
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:27 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
Thanks for the responses!
Poo is always fun.
I read some more info on Betta behaviour and everything really seems fine now. After the Big Poo he really got a lot more energetic. His water is now between 28 and 30 consistently - usually at 28 until I kill the AC and open the windows. I wish I was disciplined enough to disconnect the heater when I turned off the air, but I don't see that happenening consistently. Any suggestions for temperature control?
I add a chemical similar to Prime to my tap water (they don't sell Prime in Japan) called 4in1 which basically does the same thing (also removes ammonia, which I'm not sure I like, but my ammonia levels in the tank do rise slowly over time if I don't do my water changes, so seems to be no issue).
Thanks folks!
-helium
Poo is always fun.
I read some more info on Betta behaviour and everything really seems fine now. After the Big Poo he really got a lot more energetic. His water is now between 28 and 30 consistently - usually at 28 until I kill the AC and open the windows. I wish I was disciplined enough to disconnect the heater when I turned off the air, but I don't see that happenening consistently. Any suggestions for temperature control?
I add a chemical similar to Prime to my tap water (they don't sell Prime in Japan) called 4in1 which basically does the same thing (also removes ammonia, which I'm not sure I like, but my ammonia levels in the tank do rise slowly over time if I don't do my water changes, so seems to be no issue).
Thanks folks!
-helium
Well, Prime detoxifies Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, Chlorine, and Chloramines safely... Many other products do but Prime is just an awesome and totally safe product... Well, it's mainly Seachem. They're great!
They acctually have scientists on pay! which means they do their own testing and approving! <---Very good thing!
They acctually have scientists on pay! which means they do their own testing and approving! <---Very good thing!
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stevehelium
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:27 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
When I am back in the US, I am going to get a bottle of Prime - a BIG one. Mostly just because nobody here knows what 4in1 is.
However, I do have an electronic chlorine meter, and the stuff ZAPS the water instantly - it's clean of at least Chlorine, and I have tested my tap Nitrates, Nitrites, and pH, and they are all dandy.
Thanks for the help again!
However, I do have an electronic chlorine meter, and the stuff ZAPS the water instantly - it's clean of at least Chlorine, and I have tested my tap Nitrates, Nitrites, and pH, and they are all dandy.
Thanks for the help again!
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Phaedrus
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 1402
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:34 pm
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
- Contact:
All dechlorinators work very quickly. It's a pretty rapid chemical reaction. Prime can be used either in advance, or directly in the tank as you add tap water. Personally, I don't really like that option. It seems too risky, and you have to use a full dose of prime for your total tank volume rather than just the amount you'd use if mixing water in advance.
I'd bet that most chemical companies employ scientists and chemists. I'd be worried if they didn't. so this isn't really unique to Seachem, but the seachem setup seems to be a bit more... scientific than other instances. They are very open with information, and are always willing to give a good technical description of their products when asked. This fact is what sets seachem apart in my books.
Steve, there is something that worries me about one of your comments. You said that your ammonia levels start to rise if you don't do water changes for a while... This shouldn't be happening. It means the tank is basically still in the process of cycling.
What I think is happening, is that the 4 in 1 stuff is eating up the ammonia before the bacteria can metabolize it, keeping the available ammonia artificially low, and the bacterial colony smaller than needed for your tank. When the compound in the 4 in 1 responsible for this is exhausted, the ammonia levels start to rise to normal levels for the tank until the compound is replenished with a water change. Switching to prime will let your tank establish a properly sized colony. So you'll probably notice a bit of a cycle when you switch over as teh ammonia levels reach normal levels and the bacteria grow to catch up. Using lager than normal doses of prime during the initial period could help speed the process and keep it from getting toxic.
It's good to hear that you're going to be able to get a hold of some prime. A big bottle should last you a very long time considering the small size of your tank. I'd keep it in the fridge just to keep it fresher for longer.
as for temperature swings, occasional swings over several hours time aren't as detrimental as very rapid swings, so it should be fine. Consider the daily temperature swings you'd experience outside between daytime and nighttime temperatures, or hot sunny days, or cool overcast days. These swings happen all the time in their natural environment, but they happen over many hours during the day and through the season.
A steady temp is best, but variations are unavoidable. If your heater is keeping the temp above what you have it set at, it may be a bit inaccurate. In this case lowering the settingss a few more degrees should bring it inline with the temp you really want. Also, try to keep it in an open area with some water flow. These things might help keep it at a more steady temp.
Good to hear your betta is doing well.
I'd bet that most chemical companies employ scientists and chemists. I'd be worried if they didn't. so this isn't really unique to Seachem, but the seachem setup seems to be a bit more... scientific than other instances. They are very open with information, and are always willing to give a good technical description of their products when asked. This fact is what sets seachem apart in my books.
Steve, there is something that worries me about one of your comments. You said that your ammonia levels start to rise if you don't do water changes for a while... This shouldn't be happening. It means the tank is basically still in the process of cycling.
What I think is happening, is that the 4 in 1 stuff is eating up the ammonia before the bacteria can metabolize it, keeping the available ammonia artificially low, and the bacterial colony smaller than needed for your tank. When the compound in the 4 in 1 responsible for this is exhausted, the ammonia levels start to rise to normal levels for the tank until the compound is replenished with a water change. Switching to prime will let your tank establish a properly sized colony. So you'll probably notice a bit of a cycle when you switch over as teh ammonia levels reach normal levels and the bacteria grow to catch up. Using lager than normal doses of prime during the initial period could help speed the process and keep it from getting toxic.
It's good to hear that you're going to be able to get a hold of some prime. A big bottle should last you a very long time considering the small size of your tank. I'd keep it in the fridge just to keep it fresher for longer.
as for temperature swings, occasional swings over several hours time aren't as detrimental as very rapid swings, so it should be fine. Consider the daily temperature swings you'd experience outside between daytime and nighttime temperatures, or hot sunny days, or cool overcast days. These swings happen all the time in their natural environment, but they happen over many hours during the day and through the season.
A steady temp is best, but variations are unavoidable. If your heater is keeping the temp above what you have it set at, it may be a bit inaccurate. In this case lowering the settingss a few more degrees should bring it inline with the temp you really want. Also, try to keep it in an open area with some water flow. These things might help keep it at a more steady temp.
Good to hear your betta is doing well.
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stevehelium
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:27 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
Thanks Phaedrus!
I'm not sure what I'm talking about here, but I'll take a shot.
When my last Betta died, it was due to an ammonia spike because some of the live plants in my tank disintegrated very rapidly. I believe that the ammonia rise I have observed is due to the fact that I have no mechanical filtration in the tank and debris from those plants is still surviving - probably within the gravel, which I have been trying to clean over time.
The rises have gotten less.
However, the 4in1 DOES remove ammonia (which either you or someone else told me was not a preferable thing).
I will monitor the ammonia levels over the next month, taking readings just prior to my water changes. Recently I have not really been checking since my water changes have been fairly regular (about 50% once a week).
As for temperature changes - today was the biggest one. I fluctuated between 31 and 27 today but, as you pointed out, it took place over hours. My only issue with a 4 degree change is that large bodies of water usually don't change THAT much, DO THEY? The guy seemed a big sluggish at 31. He seems to LOVE 28 - that is when he is most active. The temp gauge on my heater is fairly accurate - within 0.5 degrees.
Right now it is a constant fight to keep the water temp stable. AC on, Heater on. AC OFF, heater off, affix fan.
Also, another "newbie" question, but what's with the brownish stains that appear toward the bottom of my tank glass (on the inside)? Bacteria?
Re: temperature, ammonia, etc. I read that larger tanks are easier to maintain in this respect. Is this true? Is this little 13 liter job preparing me well for the bigger tanks? Is this serving, as it were, as a good "training tank"?
Again, thanks for all the good info. Anxiously awaiting my next issue of TFH!
Cheers,
-helium
I'm not sure what I'm talking about here, but I'll take a shot.
When my last Betta died, it was due to an ammonia spike because some of the live plants in my tank disintegrated very rapidly. I believe that the ammonia rise I have observed is due to the fact that I have no mechanical filtration in the tank and debris from those plants is still surviving - probably within the gravel, which I have been trying to clean over time.
The rises have gotten less.
However, the 4in1 DOES remove ammonia (which either you or someone else told me was not a preferable thing).
I will monitor the ammonia levels over the next month, taking readings just prior to my water changes. Recently I have not really been checking since my water changes have been fairly regular (about 50% once a week).
As for temperature changes - today was the biggest one. I fluctuated between 31 and 27 today but, as you pointed out, it took place over hours. My only issue with a 4 degree change is that large bodies of water usually don't change THAT much, DO THEY? The guy seemed a big sluggish at 31. He seems to LOVE 28 - that is when he is most active. The temp gauge on my heater is fairly accurate - within 0.5 degrees.
Right now it is a constant fight to keep the water temp stable. AC on, Heater on. AC OFF, heater off, affix fan.
Also, another "newbie" question, but what's with the brownish stains that appear toward the bottom of my tank glass (on the inside)? Bacteria?
Re: temperature, ammonia, etc. I read that larger tanks are easier to maintain in this respect. Is this true? Is this little 13 liter job preparing me well for the bigger tanks? Is this serving, as it were, as a good "training tank"?
Again, thanks for all the good info. Anxiously awaiting my next issue of TFH!
Cheers,
-helium
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stevehelium
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:27 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
On a side note - thanks to everyone's help here, I am actually starting to ENJOY this hobby. Apart from my temperature issue right now, this Bettta is incredibly fun and has a GREAT personatity. I have gotten him to take food directly from my hand - something prior to starting a tank I never even considered was possible. He's very fun and relaxing to watch!
So, thanks!
So, thanks!
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Phaedrus
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 1402
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:34 pm
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
- Contact:
Glad to hear you're enjoying it finally. It can be a long road when starting out.
The brown stains are likely algae of some sort. Do you still have any snails in there? 1 or 2 ramshorn snails in that tank should be able to keep the algae down, but won't contribute too much to the bio-load. And since their reproduction rate is limited by food availability, you shouldn't have an explosion of snails.
The brown stains are likely algae of some sort. Do you still have any snails in there? 1 or 2 ramshorn snails in that tank should be able to keep the algae down, but won't contribute too much to the bio-load. And since their reproduction rate is limited by food availability, you shouldn't have an explosion of snails.
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stevehelium
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:27 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
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Phaedrus
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 1402
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:34 pm
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
- Contact:
You can usually find snails to buy. The thing is to get the right kind, avoiding the nuisance snails and the high bio-load snails. Ramshorns are great for the aquarium. They are reasonably hardy, eat lots of algae, tend to stay away from most plants, and breed fairly slowly.
Small tanks actually don't make very good beginner tanks IMO. They are harder to take care of than larger tanks because they are far more sensitive to swings in parameters and generally harder to keep stable.
I think the perfect beginner size is probably about 30 gallons. Large enough to stay stable, and lots of filtration and stocking options available.
Small tanks actually don't make very good beginner tanks IMO. They are harder to take care of than larger tanks because they are far more sensitive to swings in parameters and generally harder to keep stable.
I think the perfect beginner size is probably about 30 gallons. Large enough to stay stable, and lots of filtration and stocking options available.
30 gallons, I would think, would cause a lot of overstock... I have a 2.5 gallon with pond snails and i have PLENTY of snails... And every 4 or 5 days, I just take all the equiptment out (Java moss, filter, cuddlebone) and simply dump the water out... You lose some snails, but man, I got so many it doesn't even matter... It acctually helps keep the population down... But I just add new water and tada! done... Takes me literaly 15 minutes or less to do... Easy.
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stevehelium
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:27 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
I will ask at the LPS about Ramshorns. Gotta translate that, but I think I can manage.
As for beginner thanks, my thinking was that, BECAUSE they are more difficult to take care of and sensitive, going to a larger tank might feel like a comparative heaven. In my situation, having now dealt with a 13 liter tank, I think I will find the 200 liter I am planning on purchasing a godsend. That's all I meant. I feel pretty prepared to deal with a number of different issues.
As for beginner thanks, my thinking was that, BECAUSE they are more difficult to take care of and sensitive, going to a larger tank might feel like a comparative heaven. In my situation, having now dealt with a 13 liter tank, I think I will find the 200 liter I am planning on purchasing a godsend. That's all I meant. I feel pretty prepared to deal with a number of different issues.
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Phaedrus
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 1402
- Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:34 pm
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
- Contact:
Ramshorns look like.. well.. a rams horn, so they should be pretty easy to identify.
I agree compeltely Steve, moving to a larger tank will seem like heaven. :p
I only meant that if people started with a 30g they would have far less issues and save a lot of money in the long run. Unfortunately, stores seem hell bent on underselling tank size and overselling fish.
I agree compeltely Steve, moving to a larger tank will seem like heaven. :p
I only meant that if people started with a 30g they would have far less issues and save a lot of money in the long run. Unfortunately, stores seem hell bent on underselling tank size and overselling fish.
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stevehelium
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:27 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
Cheers on that! I have come to understand that most of the tanks that are sold in the pet stores are completely useless. The 13 liter tank I have was one of the BIGGER ones they sold. They had things as small as 5 liters and advertised them for geeping goldfish or guppies. The pet store I got my current Betta and, just for kicks and giggles, I asked the clerk what size tank was appropriate and he said 3 liters was fine. Geesh!
I found some pictures of Ramshorns, but cannot for the life of me find a translation of it. But if I print out the photo and take it with me, that should help. My fiance says that she has never seen snails sold in Japan - but I imagine that, if that is the case, I can just snag a few for free out of the stores tanks (asking, of course).
I know you've all seen tons of photos of different fish, Betta included, but this guy is just amazing - red and blue mix. And he LOVES to spread all his fins out! Wish I could get him on film!
I found some pictures of Ramshorns, but cannot for the life of me find a translation of it. But if I print out the photo and take it with me, that should help. My fiance says that she has never seen snails sold in Japan - but I imagine that, if that is the case, I can just snag a few for free out of the stores tanks (asking, of course).
I know you've all seen tons of photos of different fish, Betta included, but this guy is just amazing - red and blue mix. And he LOVES to spread all his fins out! Wish I could get him on film!
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stevehelium
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:27 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
Hey Phaedrus and everyone else,
Well, I skipped a water change, checked NitrAtes, NitrItes, and pH and all the levels are in good shape. So, I think my ammonia rising was all in my head. I do think the tank is properly cycled. So now my question is - once the tank IS cycled, what the heck is the point of the weekly WC? I'm gonna do a 50% now, but it honestly doesn't seem to need it. Dillution of chemicals only? I'm defeinitely no chemist, but there really seems to be nothing wrong in the tank.
Well, I skipped a water change, checked NitrAtes, NitrItes, and pH and all the levels are in good shape. So, I think my ammonia rising was all in my head. I do think the tank is properly cycled. So now my question is - once the tank IS cycled, what the heck is the point of the weekly WC? I'm gonna do a 50% now, but it honestly doesn't seem to need it. Dillution of chemicals only? I'm defeinitely no chemist, but there really seems to be nothing wrong in the tank.