SAP swimming problem

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Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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Missus
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SAP swimming problem

Post by Missus »

OK, I've just noticed that our SAP is swimming and behaving very strangely.

For the last few days he has been hanging around at the surface looking a bit listless, I put this down to him being bullied by a tankmate (who we removed yesterday). However, he is still hanging around at the surface, and just now he was swimming around on his side and sort of just drifting and flipping over. Just now he tried to swim to the bottom of the tank and rolled over onto his back and over and over again as he was heading down, it was quite disturbing :(


The tank stats are

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 10

When he's not rolling over and over he just seems..I dunno, tired. Like he can't be bothered to swim around anymore! He's just drifting almost vertically with his head at the surface right now.

Any advice? There is no sign of any parasites, fungus, damage to fins etc. If it wasn't for how he's acting I would think he is in perfect health! Is it possible he's swallowed air or has a swim bladder problem? Could he be constipated?

please help :( my boyfriend ("fella" off here) usually knows what to do but he's at work for another two hours and i thought the quicker i can figure out whats wrong with him, the more chance there is of saving him.

thanks in advance.
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Post by Pufferpunk »

How bad was he bullied? I have found these puffers to be quite delicate. Do you have a cycled QT?
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

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Missus
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Post by Missus »

He was chased about quite a bit (only for a couple of days), never got physically harmed though. Until today he was just hanging about nearer the surface, it's only been since I got in (like an hour ago) that he's been swimming strangely :-(

We do have a spare tank and a plenty of spare filter media so could just clone a filter if needs be.

Now I've looked at him really close up, he looks like he has something clear attached to the right side of his face, with a white bit attached to that hanging off :|

I'm going to give him a salt bath incase this is parasite related, would this be OK?
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Post by Pufferpunk »

I wouldn't stress him out any further right now. Just QT him w/some melafix & observe.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Post by nmonks »

Hello "missus" --

I've seen the same thing with SAPs, and I'm afraid to say the poor little guy didn't recover. He seemed to have thrown himself into the glass, developed some type of bruising behind his eye, and died a few days later.

The problem seems to be that when alarmed SAPs go into crazy fish mode, like halfbeaks and hatchetfish. I assume that's because they are open water fish, where hiding isn't an option. If they get scared, they either jump or swim away. And yes, I've seen them jump out of the water and into a filter.

Anyway, they're small, and I guess if bruised badly, the internal bleeding causes serious problems. Frankly, I doubt salt, melafix, or anything like that will make a blind bit of difference, but go for it if you want.

Bullying may be an issue with SAPs, too. I had three, but only two formed a "pack", the other one seemingly ostracized. He's gone now (my tank was getting too overstocked, so turned a failure into a solution). Anyway, in this regard they are exactly and precisely like any other schooling fish: easy in big groups, difficult in twos and threes. SAPs are so much more placid in groups that it seems cruel to keep them singly, but in twos and threes, you run the risk of aggression problems as the fish sort out their heirarchy.

Cheers,

Neale
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Post by Fella »

nmonks wrote:Hello "missus" --

I've seen the same thing with SAPs, and I'm afraid to say the poor little guy didn't recover. He seemed to have thrown himself into the glass, developed some type of bruising behind his eye, and died a few days later.

The problem seems to be that when alarmed SAPs go into crazy fish mode, like halfbeaks and hatchetfish. I assume that's because they are open water fish, where hiding isn't an option. If they get scared, they either jump or swim away. And yes, I've seen them jump out of the water and into a filter.

Anyway, they're small, and I guess if bruised badly, the internal bleeding causes serious problems. Frankly, I doubt salt, melafix, or anything like that will make a blind bit of difference, but go for it if you want.

Bullying may be an issue with SAPs, too. I had three, but only two formed a "pack", the other one seemingly ostracized. He's gone now (my tank was getting too overstocked, so turned a failure into a solution). Anyway, in this regard they are exactly and precisely like any other schooling fish: easy in big groups, difficult in twos and threes. SAPs are so much more placid in groups that it seems cruel to keep them singly, but in twos and threes, you run the risk of aggression problems as the fish sort out their heirarchy.

Cheers,

Neale
hey neale,

I've just came home to this fish and gave the same diagnosis. it looks pink beneath the skin on it's head, it's using only 1 pectoral fin, and it is struggling to swim downward. I also presumed it was from bumping into the glass after being chased by another fish. I#ll monitor it for a few days but to be honest, I don't think he's going to survive, but at the moment it doesn't seem in pain, just unable to move properly.

Thanks for the input on this thread guys.

Craig
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Missus
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Post by Missus »

This morning he was just lying on his side at the bottom of the tank not breathing very much so we had to euthanise him :-( RIP little fishy!
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Post by Hilly »

Sorry to hear he didnt make it.
Hilly
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Post by Pufferpunk »

So sorry... how was he euthanized?
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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SkeptikaL
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Post by SkeptikaL »

Now, never having euthanized a fish mytself, what is the 'proper' way? I mean, when I was younger, forgive me everyone, but when everyone said flush em, I couldn't do it, it seemed... to inhumane... So, not that it was a WHOLE lot better, but I put em on the cutting block... One cleaver swing... I was young tho... It did seem like a fast way to let em go...

(Only did this on a fish that developed many open soars probably due to unfit living conditions... I took the advice of a local Petco... 10 gallons is SO not enough for as many fish as they say it is... )
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Post by Boxermom »

Flushing is not a humane way of euthanizing. The most commonly recognized way is to overdose it with clove oil. Doesn't take much. Just put the fish in a container (I use a disposable plastic cup, others use Ziploc bags) with some tank water, add 5 or so drops of clove oil, and wait until it stops moving and keels over. Then I pop it into the freezer to make sure its dead. Defrost and then flush.

I saw someone today on another forum recommend someone put his betta in a baggie and run it over with his car or stomp on it with his shoe!!

The other way I saw recommended by the AVMA (sorry, don't have the link handy) is quickly piercing the brain with a sharp instrument like a knife. Cleaver severing the head would pretty much do the same thing I imagine.
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Post by Pufferpunk »

Overdose on clove oil in a baggie & then freeze.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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SkeptikaL
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Post by SkeptikaL »

ok, now I know! lol. I take it clove oil comes from a convenient store?
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Pufferpunk
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Post by Pufferpunk »

I find it in the toothache isle of the drug store.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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Post by Boxermom »

Drugstores, health food stores, online places like Amazon, etc. Its readily available and quite cheap.
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