Sick F8?

Oh no! Sick fish?! Come here and see if someone can help!
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Read this before posting!!

Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)

4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.

5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.

We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.

While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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tehbakaneko
Puffer Fry
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:01 pm

Sick F8?

Post by tehbakaneko »

Hm.. I'm not a new member but I had to re-sign up... interesting. Anyway...


I have 3 F8 puffers. One of them however, seems to be acting sickly; with that said, I'm not sure if I'm just being paranoid. I noticed a complete change in behavior yesterday. I've had these guys for a little over a year. He has been putzing around in the bottom of the tank, much like he's sleeping, but this is constantly, even during the day. But, if I give him a nudge he'll get up and swim about, though his swimming patterns aren't even normal. They're very slow [think as if he didn't give a damn about what was bothering him] and at times he'd just get up, move to a new spot, and lay down again. He sways side to side with the current of the water. His mouth seems swollen compared to the others [I've tried to take clear photos of this, but he's small (~1") and to get a clear picture is difficult with him lying in the center of the tank and all], the bottom of his mouth in particular so I'm also very worried he's not eating. He's relatively thin [certainly thinner than my other 2] but it doesn't look like a sickly thin [as some of the ones I've seen on here]. I haven't seen him eat in the past day, but then again I haven't even seen him swim to the surface of the tank. He used to be very lively and dart all over the place so I don't know what's wrong. In the past 5 hours I've placed him in his own 5gallon tank to see if I could monitor him better. As of right now, he is moving about, but it's still sluggish and he lets the current move him [as in, when he's near the part where the water is coming out of he lets it push him down to the bottom of the tank before trying to swim up again.. is he just trying to have some sh*ts and giggles with me or what... :?]. Water changes are done every week and a half or so, with 45% approx. changed. I did that today- what water I took out I placed some in the 5G tank [the other two have a 10G tank] along with fresh water. I tested both tanks and they had the same readings:

Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: between 0-20 [closer to 0]
SG: between 1.000 and 1.001
pH:7

The only thing that has gone wrong in my 10G tank is that it's invaded with algae quite a bit. I clean it off the same time I do water changes, but it comes back with a vengance.

I know this was long winded but I wanted to provide much detail as possible so maybe someone could help me. After a year of having all three [they were all purchased at the same time- I cleaned out my LFS getting these lil guys], it would be very sad to both me and the other 2 if we lost him. :(

Included are some pics here-
This is what he was like initially:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/C ... C00984.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/C ... C00986.jpg

After he got up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/C ... C00997.jpg

Comparison [sort of] to another:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/C ... C01000.jpg

And one more.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/C ... C01001.jpg
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Bred
Former Staff Member
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Post by Bred »

Well-intentioned as it was, the move to an uncycled 5g tank may be detrimental to your puff. Any waste he secretes and/or food placed in his tank will quickly render the conditions toxic. Tank water alone is not enough to cycle a tank. Try borrowing some filter media from the 10g's filter, placing it in the 5g filter.

Now. A 10g tank is not big enough for three mature F8s. These fish need 10g each, at least. Also, these are brackish water fish - although they will not die immediately in FW, their lifespan and general healthiness is greater in BW.

As for your specific fish, lethargy and unwillingness to eat are, as symptoms, not particular to any one disease. What they may indicate is that the fish is lacking in something crucial. I would look to water quality (in your case, salinity), housing conditions (adequate space and complex environment), and feeding habits - what do you normally feed him? Puffers need a varied, healthy diet.
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tehbakaneko
Puffer Fry
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:01 pm

Post by tehbakaneko »

Yes, I'm afraid I just did that in an act of being paranoid. Unfortunately I'm limited to space, so I took an available tank and placed him in there. He seems to be more active though, though still not eating, so I'm happy it didn't affect him negatively.

As for the tank, before I had bought these F8s I [believe it or not] did do my research. I read that one F8 needs at least 3G per, so that's what I went by. Also, both tanks are running with brackish water- I didn't mention it in my previous post when I probably should have! :? In that same site I had read that their diet consists of bloodworms, plankton [?], brine shrimp, clams, snails, and occasionally feeders. I rotate between the worms and shrimp, and give them the last three once in a while [I'd put it about every other week or so]. Is there something else I should be giving them as well? Oh, they're fed once per day, early evening.

Like I said before though, I'm not sure if I'm just being paranoid, y'know? I've been told these are very sensitive fish and one little thing can send them into a frenzy of problems [exaggeration, yes]. So my lil' guy acting strangely makes me worry. :(
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Bred
Former Staff Member
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Post by Bred »

Where did you read they need 3g ea.? :? That rule applies to Dwarf Puffers, not Figure 8s. See http://www.pufferlist.com/ under "Tetraodon biocellatus", Brackish.

Did you borrow filter media for the isolation tank like I suggested? Otherwise, it will affect him negatively. Puffers do not cope well with ammonia and nitrite; the effect of placing them in an uncycled tank while continuing to feed is probable death.

What kind of salt are you using and what is the specific gravity (SG)?
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tehbakaneko
Puffer Fry
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:01 pm

Post by tehbakaneko »

Yup, I did! I was considering to just switch filters altogether but I thought against that. But now it seems I'll have to hunt for a new tank...

For the first 6 months I was using some sort of liquid to create brackish water conditions [it specified for cichlids and other brackish water fish] but after cruising around a bit I found out marine salt was better, so I used the now isolation tank to set that up and after about a week or so of running I did water changes every day and a half to attempt to ease them into the "new" water so to speak. They didn't seem stressed but I was so scared this might kill them. I didn't know how else to go about it. =\
Anyway long story short...

Salt: Instant Ocean
SG: Now floating between 1.001 and 1.002 [it was in my first post too, silly.]
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Bred
Former Staff Member
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Post by Bred »

Ah! Nice... Well you're off to a good start.

Have you inspected the singleton's teeth for overgrowth?
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tehbakaneko
Puffer Fry
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:01 pm

Post by tehbakaneko »

I've checked and rechecked- he's showing no signs that anything is wrong except for the skinniness and swollen lower lip [it looks like he's not breathing because of the inflammation, but he is by watching his gills].

Staring at him for about 10 minutes, I've noticed he doesn't use his tailfin at all to motor around [if you could even say he motors anymore], either. =\
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Bred
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Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:42 am
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Post by Bred »

Does he appear to have any cottony white growths on his lips or anywhere else on his body?

Or anything that resembles a little goatee - like white flakes hanging off the bottom lip?
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tehbakaneko
Puffer Fry
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:01 pm

Post by tehbakaneko »

Nothing of that sort can be seen. His mouth looks normal, it's not inflamed to the point where I can't see the inside of his mouth [but I don't see anything moving in there].

It looks like the base of his bottom fin [I don't know the technical term for it :oops:] is kinda opaque, not completely translucent like it normally should. He kinda tries to fold it against his body, too.
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