PH Effect on GSP.

[drjuzz]

HI All

I had a PH crash in my tank after a water change (this is the reason you should always test your water, I did'nt now my Puffer is suffering )
The PH dropped down to 7.7, Shermy alsmost died! (black on top and heavy breathing and just lying around) I started buffering the water and rising the PH slowly on Monday 11th 7.9, he started getting better (green on top and small back stress marks on the side), last night Tuesday 12th i raised it up to 8.0. Now he is showing signs of stress agian (black on Top).

I got used to the PH of the tap water being 8.4 and neglected to check it every time.

Shermy is about 3 and half CM (excluding tail), had him/her for just over a year.

Has anyone had a PH drop experiance like this? What was the recovery time of the puffer ? Should i take the PH up anymore and if i should what would u suggest i take it to?

as of this morning when i left for work he/she was swimming around activley, not eating, BLack on top (but looking a hell of a lot betta than he was)

Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0
SG-1.010
PH-8

Thanks!

[Pamela]

pH is exponential, so the difference between pH 7 and pH8 is a lot bigger than, say, a SG of 1.007 and 1.008, so it's possible that your present changes in pH, although you're rectifying the situation, are too steep for Shermy, so give hem a bit of time to adjust.
Wiser heads than mine say that pH stability is more impo than level, but 7.7 probably is a bit out of whack for him.
Even so, bring the pH up a bit slower.
How's the rest of the water quality? Could some bacteria have been knocked out by the fluctuations?
Pami.

[Bred]

Pour some water out of your tap into a clean glass and let it sit overnight, and then test the pH. Water out of the tap is packed with all kinds of dissolved gasses, most of which will dissipate from the water over the course of a few hours, causing a change to pH. This may give you a better picture of what's going on.

I would cease and desist use of the buffering agent and swap out whatever substate you currently have for crushed coral or aragonite. These substrates will buffer the water long-term, eliminating the need for constant additives and provide a far more stable environment. Buffering additives are very short-term--they are quickly used up and what you're left with is a pH roller-coaster. Additives often cause more problems than they solve.

[HRPuffersnStuff]

The little guy in my sig was lost to a PH crash. I had 4 other puffs with him that were not affected, (2 GSPs) so it is different for each puff. He started running into things and stopped eating. He only lasted about three days after the water change. I hope your little guy fairs better.

Jessica

[RTR]

Folks need to understand the difference between pH crash and pH shock. A pH crash is real and can affect certain bacteria easily, but not fish. A large pH change most often result from a large KH change which is also a large TDS change. Fish go into osmotic shock from the TDS change, there is no such thing as pH shock in fish within the ranges we operate our tanks. Why do you think fish are unaffected in planted tanks when the pH is dropped by CO2? Because the CO2 has no hobby-detectable effect on the TDS or KH, only on the pH. It is not the pH hitting the fish, it is the osmotic change (either direction).

[HRPuffersnStuff]

My PH was at 6.0 after the hurricanes hit last year. i guess that is a far cry from the 7.7 you spoke of.

[drjuzz]

as of this morning, the PH is at 8.1, he is still looking pretty stress (black on top) and he is pacing up and down the side of the glass. I am heading out to the petshop now to get some crushed coral or aragonite witch i am going to put in my bucket that i premix my water in to prebuffer the water. I have a mixture of aragonite ,seasand and shells as substrate in the tank.

After doing furthure tests, It seems that tap water is coming out at 5.5, and when mixed with sea water (getting from the local aquarium) the PH is sitting at 6.5. This explains why the PH was 7.7 after the last water change. So i have learnt my lesson, CHECK CHECK AND CHECK AGAIN!

So in theroy, because i have a mixture of aragonite ,seasand and shells as substrate in time the PH would have corrected itself ? and if i add crushed coral or agraonite to my premix water bucket it should buffer it instead of using a buffering agent ?

I'll keep a close eye on the water quality thanks Pamela
RTR i am gonna go educate myself a bit more on pH crash, pH shock and osmotic change.
HRPuffersnStuff, 6.0 JEES! u are lucky u only lost 1 and not all 4!!!!
Bred thanks for your info on using coral or aragonite instead of a buffering agent to prevent PH rollercoaster rides!

[Bred]

drjuzz, sounds like you have it almost figured out.

Crushed coral and/or aragonite must go into the main tank, where it's needed. Only in the main tank can it adequately buffer against pH changes in the main tank.

Here's everything you wanted to know and then some, a reading selection from the library of this site: "What? The Water's Hard?"

[drjuzz]

Hi Every1

Update Time!, Shermy is doing betta, he is swimming around actively now, still a bit disorientated sometimes. The top half of his body is still very black and his belly is nice an white. He is eating although his is not as energetic about it as he normally is. He has also been pacing allot lately ... swimming around aimlessly.

his water parameter are as follows as of last night:
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0
SG-1.010
PH-8.3

I am getting a bit confused by the PH readings i am getting.. Cause the test kit i have only has fresh and salt water. I take it that colour in-between the two would be brackish. Would it be better for me to invest in a digital PH Tester? as the tap water is still coming out at 6.5 and i am not sure of the accuracy of my readings of the tests. On my test it looks like it is at about 8, the digital PH at the LFS reads 8.3.

My current procedure for mixing my water is.

declorinated 10l of tap water, add PH and KH buffer to 8.3 and 10 respectively, add anti stress and fish coat shield, let sit for 1 day. Add 10l of sea water, Test water parameters, let sit for 1-6 days before doing water change.

Is there anything else i should be doing or checking or is there a better procedure that this ?

How long should it take for his colours and actions 2 return to normal? any idea?

Any other suggestions?

Should i maybe invest in a bit of patience and let nature take it course?

I also invested in a Vlu-Val type canister fileter that sits under the tank about 1 and a half months ago. It is specified for a 280l Tank (for when i get a bigger tank) Do u think i can take the other filters off now and give it it's first clean? Will the bacteria coleny be going strong enough in there now to remove the other filters (hang on aqua clear 200 & Small interal caniter type)?

Sorry for all the questions .. times of stress for me!! so i though i would give u everthing! Thanks very much in advance for all your help and suggestions.... The Puffer Forum and its members are the BEST!

[Bred]

I'm a bit concerned about 0 nitrate. How often and how much water do you change?

What's the name of this fish slime stuff additive? Healthy fish don't need any help with their slime coat. Are you using Ammo-lock or any other ammonia "remover"?

The cannister filter has been running for over a month? Should be established, but I'd like to figure out why you have no nitrates first. When you clean it, do not disturb the biological media. Set it aside and make sure it doesn't spend any time in chlorinated water.

[drjuzz]

be4 this happened, i did a 50% water change( with gravel siphon), then i found out the PH had dropped and i did a 30% change (with properly buffered water) 2 days after the 50% change. The last water change i did was 5 days ago. I normaly do a 30% weekly change and every 2nd week a 50% with gravel siphon.

I will bring u the name of the product tomorrow, yes the one product i have been using since this happened dose have ammonia remover and slime coat. I don't use it when the tank is normal though.

I am thinking there are no nitrates cause of the 80% water change over 2 days, and since then i have been feeding alot less that normal as he has not been eating. Could this be a possibilty? I'll go get a test done at the LFS now after work to double check

I normaly use the siphoned water from the tank to clean the sponges in and i wont disturb the biological media (thanks for the tip!)

I'll let u know the name of the product and the test result from the LFS 2morrow morning. Thanks!

[Myaj]

Well, the product, if it does have an ammonia remover, could have starved your bactiera by taking away the ammonia before it could be processed. That basically means you have an uncycled tank.. but we'll know when you come back with the product name.

I would definately invest in a digital pH meter. You can find them for around $20 so that really isn't that expensive, and they are a heck of a lot easier to use and more accurate than a drop kit. No guessing at colors, just read the display. You'd need calibration solutions too, those are cheap as well.

[Bred]

I would definately invest in a digital pH meter. You can find them for around $20 so that really isn't that expensive, and they are a heck of a lot easier to use and more accurate than a drop kit.

$20, are you serious? Where? The only ones I've seen locally are Milwaukees and Pinpoints, and they're $200+

[RTR]

What are the GH and KH "buffers" that you are adding to the FW before mixing? I have a string distrust of commercial buffers which have a horrible history of instability in aquarium use.

Test scales for FW and SW are different. Read the FW on the FW scale, if the water after salt is mid- to high-BW or SW, use the SW scale.

[drjuzz]

The product is called Aquagene stress shield no10 (i can't get to the website), and the PH and KH buffer is called Cape Coral PH and KH upper (i can't seem to find a website for it, but is looks like a local product), on the tub it says for parameters PH 8.0-8.4 and KH 5-10. RTR what would be the best Product to buffer the water then, they have a really cheap PH only Buffer(witch dosent look to great), I found the Cape Coral PH and KH buffer in a marine Fish Store.

The Nitrate test at the pet shop came off just off clear, so i would say it is at about 2 - 4.

This mornig he is looking a little better, he ate! and the black on top is starting to dull a little.

I checked out the digital PH meter at the LFS yesterday, Is a little to expensive for my pocket at the moment (they work out to about 75$ here in South Africa), So ill keep on using the drop test for now.

Thanks All!