GSP w/ white spots - kanamycin not working (w/ NEW pics!)

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Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.

1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.

2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.

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One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.

Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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puffer_puff
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GSP w/ white spots - kanamycin not working (w/ NEW pics!)

Post by puffer_puff »

Note: THE NEW PICS ARE POSTED AT THE TOP OF PAGE THREE OF THIS THREAD


Hi.

My GSP has had white spots on it for about two weeks, which neither QuickCure nor Clout were able to cure. I used QuickCure for 7 days straight, but the temperature was raised to 82 or so, so that should have been sufficient. I'm on the 4th day of treatment with Clout. On the package it reads that if a parasite is still present 24 h after treatment, I'm to do a 25% water change and treat again. I didn't know whether to treat the tank on the second day with the full amount of medicine (as though I was treating it for the first time, even though only 25% of the water was new), or with only 25% more medicine. The guy at my LFS told me that I should treat the tank as per the additional 25% only. Is this correct?

Regardless, here are photos of the puffer (and the spots). They seem to be getting worse daily. The puffer started to be more active after initial treatment with Clout, but his appetite's been gone - entirely - for well over a week. Now he seems to be struggling, but at least in an active way, as though he's bothered and wants to get away from the blue Clout-water. However, sometimes he seems to be losing his balance/orientation, or to be "passing out" or to be in a daze. He's breathing hard continuously.

The SG is 1.006 (I know it should be higher, but I've been raising it only 0.002 per week, as advised).

Okay, here are the photos (please see especially the 3rd and 4th ones):

Image
Image
Image
Image

Please advise me as to what I should do.

Many thanks,
puffer_puff
Last edited by puffer_puff on Sun May 28, 2006 12:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Pufferpunk »

That is definately not ich. Looks like some kind of bacterial infection. Please read the article in our library about the care of GSPs. Looks like yours is in FW. Getting it into the proper environment will improve it's immune system. Melafix/Pimafix will help too.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

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Post by puffer_puff »

I'm not sure how I can get it into the proper environment quickly if I was told I cannot raise the SG faster than 0.002 units per week.

Will read article; also looking into Melafix/Pimafix.

Thank you.
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Post by Phaedrus »

Just keep raising the salinity by 0.002 per week. Eventually you'll be where you need to be.

If you have access to bio-spira, you could go faster without fear of losing your bacteria, because you could just use the bio-spira and be back to full strength at the new SG.

What are your water parameters? ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph

what is your water change schedule?

how big is the tank?

melafix and pimafix should help.
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Post by Pyratt »

Yeh PufferPunk is totally on target with the diagnosis.

Ich/itch is the result of parasites and is manifested in Tiny white dots.

That (from my handy-dandy freshwater fish disease chart that came with Mardel-brand medication) disease appears to be "Body Fungus aka Columnaris," which is not a true fungus but rather, as PPunk said, a bacterial infection.

Mardel-brand recommends the antibiotic Maracyn (a broad spectrum antibiotic). In general, in response to bacterial infections, people on this forum push for increased water changes (50% daily if you can) and addition of Melafix. The antibiotic is more optional and if you can, administer it to the fish in its own hospital tank. A 10g w/ airstone and filter, filled with main-tank water would be great. Also such a small amount of water makes 50% water changes faster for you and saves you medication dosage amounts. However with a small amount of water, the daily water changes are moved from recommended to very-strongly recommended.

Also.. if you haven't been doing frequent water changes in the recent past, do smaller water changes than 50% to begin to avoid shocking your fish. I've heard of fish that adjust and live in old water and then are shocked when their water is cleaned too abruptly.

-Pyratt
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Post by Pufferpunk »

If the tank is used for QT, I'd even do larger WC, since it won't be cycked. That fish doesn't look like a juvie either.
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Post by puffergeek »

From what I understand, Maracyn is not a truly broad-spectrum antibiotic... when I treated my sick christmas wrasse, the guys over at wetwebmedia helped with this advice:

"Erythromycin is *not* a broad-spectrum antibiotic. It treats *only* gram-positive bacterial infections (that's bacteria WITH a cell wall). Gram-positive bacteria are responsible for only the vast *minority* of bacterial infections in fish. Erythromycin does not affect gram-negative bacteria (as g-neg bacteria do not have a cell wal for the med to break down). Since gram-negative bacteria are responsible for most bacterial infections in fish, unless you are SURE you are treating a g-pos infection, it's safest to use something broad-spectrum that will tackle BOTH gram-positive and gram-negative infections (even though erythromycin is the most effective med against g-pos bacteria).

Kanamycin is my drug of choice of broad-spectrum antibiotics; oxytetracycline is another great one. Plenty of others out there, too. Unless you're looking under a good microscope and *know* whether your bacteria is g-pos or g-neg, I'd use something that kills both."

Ziz (my wrasse) and I owe a huge thanks to vintage_fish at WWM... I still buy Kanacyn if I need antibiotics.

Good luck, I know how stressful a sick fish can be...
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lisalisa

Post by lisalisa »

Who was it that said that at WWM? PP, Jager, myself, and I believe P-A are crew there too.
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Post by puffergeek »

I actually first ran into some of PP's work there and found this site!

vintage_fish was the one who posted that. If you want I could find the thread if you like (or you could search for sick christmas wrasse).

I've posted once or twice there... I still consider my reefy knowledge in the "grasshopper" category, so I'm a bit bashful. That and I spend my free moments here :D
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Post by lisalisa »

What do you mean you've been 'posted there'? We post all of the questions we get in the inbox. Is that what you mean?
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Post by puffergeek »

Sorry, this was all via the forum...
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Post by lisalisa »

Oooo I see, sorry I thought you meant Wetwebmedia, the main site.
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Post by puffer_puff »

Update: There are about twice as many "spots"/"sores"—I don't know what to call them—today as there were yesterday. It's a holiday here today, so no stores were open.
Phaedrus wrote:If you have access to bio-spira, you could go faster without fear of losing your bacteria, because you could just use the bio-spira and be back to full strength at the new SG.
I'm looking into it, but none of the five places I've checked with have it (only three of them knew what it was).

lisalisa, do you know if there's a place in or around our city that carries it?
Phaedrus wrote:What are your water parameters? ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph
I shouldn't have assumed that not listing them meant that they were fine. They're all normal (or nearly nonexistent as the case is with some); at least they were four days ago—maybe the "Clout" changed that. I'll check again.
Phaedrus wrote:what is your water change schedule?
I change about 80% of the water weekly.
Phaedrus wrote:how big is the tank?
The hospital tank is 20 gallons. The regular tank (for now) is 45 gallons.

Thank you, Pyratt, for your (hopefully successful) identification of the disease. I have been doing 25% water changes because that's part of the instructions for using "Clout", but I'm changing that immediately to 50%. The fish is used to large water changes.

Pufferpunk, thank you once again. The tank is cycled (but I'll check again as per what I wrote above in this post) because the filters are from another tank.

puffergeek, many thanks to you. I will especially be using the information you posted in seeking a broad-spectrum antibiotic.

So: 50% water changes; broad-spectrum antibiotic; bio-spira, if I can find it, with a jump in SG; temp raised a few degrees;...

QUESTION: Is Melafix to be used in conjunction with the antibiotic?
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Post by Pufferpunk »

Yes, use the Melafix along w/any antibiotic. Don't bother w/B-S in your QT. With the meds & large WC, it won't have a chance to work in there.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...

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Post by Pyratt »

Hehe if you have plenty of money to throw at this fish, grab an 8oz of Pimafix while you're at it. In general, in the dosages on the bottles, Pimafix and Melafix are assumed to be non-problem causing (in terms of interfering with medications or health of the tank). Pimafix is supposed to help in fighting fungus and, who knows, that may be a true fungus... /shrug. The point is that (as far as we know) Pimafix won't hurt.

-Pyratt Pete

P.S.: I've done a bunch of reading up and that Kanamycin seems to be a great medication if you can access it. Around here all I can find is Mardel brand stuff (does not include Kana-stuff). I'm currently treating a fish suspected of a bacterial infection. If the Maracyn-Two I'm using fails to help after week I will be removing that medication with carbon and then begin to treat with Tetracycline.
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