New modestus- different behavior?

[Liz]

I recently acquired an A modestus, about 1.5-2". I have kept GSPs, fig 8, dwarfs, and irrubesco but never one of these guys. He looks a little different... Body is a little narrower? But his behavior is a bit different. I haven't seen him rest on things and I haven't seen the tail-curling hunting. Do these guys do this? Also! To start with I got some frozen spirulina gut-loaded brineshrimp to try, and he doesn't seem interested, but he LOVES flakes! I have NEVER had a puffer take flakes before! I'm going to try to see if I can't get a pest snail population going for him. I also got some ghost shrimp for him since that is what they fed them in the store, he didn't seem interested but what do you know after a few days the buggers were gone.

In the past my puffs would mainly eat bloodworms, they were picky, but I am determined NOT to do bloodworms this time around since I am super incredibly allergic and even with gloves there were incidences and I just don't want to get into that again. He doesn't seem very interested in hunting or biting off things from what i have seen, he wont gnaw on large flakes... He just spits them out and goes for smaller ones he can munch in one bite. If he ate the ghost shrimp he must have been taking bites, but maybe they just died... Why I am saying this is because I am hesitant to try him a typical puff diet of krill, pieces of shrimp, pieces if clam etc if he wont take bites off things. And he'll eat flakes like crazy but doesn't seem interested in hunting. Anyone hear of modestus having different behaviors than other puffs? Will these behaviors come out as he adjusts? I miss the puffer behaviors!

He's living in a 20 gallon set up 3 days ago with a dismantled cycled tank's entire filter media brought over and I thought I would skip the cycle but right now I am getting ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings. I know it's a no-no to have a puffer in an uncycled tank, but I really thought it wouldn't cycle over! I am doing 50% water changes daily, and wondering if his puffy behavior will come out more when the cycle finishes. He isn't showing signs of stress, just pacing up and down the glass- boredom? I have a fair amount of decor in there, mixed artificial and natural, and have more live plants on the way to add a little more environment to the tank. He's getting Aqueon tropical flakes and a round of fenbendazole flakes until I find something better he will take.

His name is Mouse. This is Mouse's debut goth music video (if the sound/music works):
https://goo.gl/photos/MpqZugqAKWZnLYWf6
Cute pic:
https://goo.gl/photos/pizRKiwdze3JMnXi9

A picture of the tank:

He shares it with 2 platies, 2 guppies, and 2 tiger barbs. So far everyone gets along.
The glowing thing is an LED mushroom. I have never done artifical decor before and I don't usually prefer it but I got a bunch of stuff free with the tank, and my husband likes the mushroom.

I have some amazon swords, vals, aponogeton bulbs and dwarf lily bulbs, flame moss and weeping moss on the way.

[Pufferpunk]

Modestus are definitely the oddballs of the pufferworld! How do his teeth look? 2nd to the SAP, they are the worst for needing dentistry.

[Liz]

I remember you, PufferPunk! I came on here a lot years ago. You are the puffer expert! Yeah I have read they have tooth overgrowth issues... I haven't checked his teeth yet, he is pretty small and very active so it's a little hard to see them. I will try to see them today. I had never seen these guys in pet stores before until my lfs got a couple in geez, a while back... and two were still there so I caved and got the plumper of the two, although they both looked fairly healthy. I was hoping to have him in the 20 gallon by himself but when I actually got the tank I decided to move the other guys over because they were in a smaller, overstocked tank, with a plan to separate them if any problems emerged. He seems to be getting along with everyone totally fine, which did surprise me. I am hoping maybe because he is young that he will be able to grow up and be okay around his tankmates... wishful thinking, probably. He reminds me a little of a cross between a puffer and a typical fish. Also, my dwarf lily bulb and flame moss came today, and I'm about the dot the substrate with the flame moss and stick the lily bulb somewhere to root. I also have anubias, java fern, and windelov java fern in there so far. It looks like I inherited some pest snails with the tank so we will see, hopefully he decides to take a few out and not let them overpopulate

[Pufferpunk]

He will murder all your other fish overnight, believe me!

[Liz]

well the 20 gallon was meant for him, mainly. Everyone is getting along but I guess soon I'll be setting up another. Just have to make room. My cycle is going well, today my ammonia was 0.5, nitrites were 0.25 and nitrate was 10. It's good because my tap water has 1 ppm ammonia, it is my understanding this is due to chloramines. Previously the tank water has tested 1 ppm since I set it up a few days ago, so seeing a drop is nice. I did throw in a bottle of SafeStart but silly me put it in the water column instead of the filter. With the 50% water changes daily I think I have been keeping everybody happy, I use Prime so my nh3 is getting converted to nh4 with daily water changes with the Prime...

Can you clarify for me...? I have read prime only does this conversion for 24 hrs... Once nh3 is converted to nh4, does it convert back to nh3 after 24 hours? Or does prime just stop converting new nh3 molecules after 24 hours? Ie. 24 hours after prime will my entire total ammonia go back to toxic nh3, or will my nh3 just be from the new molecules that form after that time?

I'm reading about doing puffer dentistry. I've never had a tooth issue with a puff before but it looks like with a modestus I'll like I'll eventually be needing some clove oil and some cuticle clippers. The idea doesn't scare me too badly. Oh, do you know how quickly modestus grow? I went to the pet store and the guy in charge of the fish department said they grew really quickly since they came in. I don't know how long ago they came in but he said they about doubled in size since they came in.

Thanks!

[Pufferpunk]

Do NOT use clove oil for sedation! We have discovered it stops their breathing, which eventually causes brain damage. Finquel (MS-222) is what is recommended.

As far as your chemistry Qs--I have no idea... Our resident Mentor-scientist, RTR, has been long gone from this site, due to blindness. Maybe Dr Monks or Corvus would know?

[Corvus]

Seachem states the bond of Prime with ammonia from chloramine or elsewhere is not reversible, but unbound Prime dissipates from your system within 24 hours. Most test kits will give you a false positive measurement for ammonia when ammonia binders (in dechlorinators, water conditioners) are used, because the bound ammonia still reacts with the test kit.

[nmonks]

There's no real practical difference between clove oil (eugenol) and MS-222. They are both depressants that cause fish to become sedated. Overuse of either is terminal, and there is an extensive veterinarian literature on the use of MS-222 for euthanasia, and the beginnings of one of eugenol as a useful alternative. Unlike MS-222, eugenol does not alter the pH (if you don't use a buffer alongside MS-222 the pH will drop significantly, enough to be severely stressful). So in some ways eugenol might even be safer than MS-222.

I've used clove oil many times, and find it to be perfectly safe used correctly. Sedating any fish causes gill movements to decrease, and just as with humans, cutting down the oxygen to the brain for too long can cause problems. Doesn't matter whether you use MS-222 or eugenol, as far as I can tell. However, unlike humans, fish aren't going to be harmed by a couple minutes slower gill movement and consequently slightly less oxygen being transported. They are cold blooded animals with relatively simple brains. I honestly can't see any real difference in exposing fish to MS-222 compared with eugenol. Overdose will kill; correct use will sedate; and fish have a much higher tolerance for oxygen starvation than humans do, so there's a generous margin of error.

But of course, if you have access to a vet qualified to treat fish, solicit their opinion. I'm a marine zoologist by training, not a vet, so all I'm offering here is an opinion, not expert testimony!

Cheers, Neale

[Pufferpunk]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks for the clarification!

[nmonks]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks for the clarification!

No problem! Hopefully you'll be able to get someone with a vet background to comment though. If there is a difference between MS-222 and eugenol, I'd like to know about it!

Cheers, Neale

[Corvus]

Recently I read a vet's phD on fish narcosis (Geiger, 2007, in German: https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/6859/1/ ... istina.pdf) in which also various narcotics such as clove oil (eugenol) and MS-222 are compared. While MS-222 is the most often used narcotic for fishes, the author notes advantages of eugenol, too, such as reducing the stress level more effectively compared to MS-222. Obtaining MS-222 can also be difficult in some countries (Brexit might make it worse).

[Liz]

Wow thanks for all the great info, guys! I plan to use clove oil since it is much easier to obtain. Is there already a sticky on puffer dentisty and the info in this thread? There should be!

[Pufferpunk]

It's in our Library. If you need the accompanying pics (lost in our upgrade ), let me know.

[PYRU]

Wow thanks for all the great info, guys! I plan to use clove oil since it is much easier to obtain. Is there already a sticky on puffer dentisty and the info in this thread? There should be!

This is what I've done with clove oil and has worked for me.

2 Buckets one for sedation and one to transport fish back to its tank

Set up your work area and make sure everything is very clean.

Place 5 drops of clove oil and some water in a ziplock freezer bag for every 1 gallon of water needed to submerge the fish.

Shake well, then pour into container where fish will be sedated. Use water from the tank if possible and match tank temperature.

Place fish in the solution. When it turns over on its side and gill movements slow, remove it from the solution, perform the procedure. If the fish doesn't roll over in 5 minutes, then add another drop per 1 gallon (shake it up in water before adding).

You will want to work quickly and finish the procedure you're performing as quickly as possible.

Make sure you keep one hand on the fish at all times.

After you're done place the fish in a bucket of clean water and wait for it to come back around before putting it back in the tank.

[Pufferpunk]

library/hospital/dentistry/