DPs: setting up a new tank

[Minipuff]

Hi,

I'm new to the aquarium hobby, and my big plan is to eventually get som dwarf puffers. I have read quite a lot about these adorable (and murderous) fish, and about keeping an aquarium in general. I started cycling my first tank (approx 30 gal with external filtration) almost two weeks ago, using ammonia. All is fine, bacteria seem to be building up in my filter. I will of course not add any fish until the tank is fully cycled.

The big question is: Is there any possibility of succeeding with DPs in a recently cycled tank, for a newbie like me? I've had advice from others to keep other fish until the tank is mature, so this is my plan now. Those fish will be schools of corydoras and barbs, around 30 individuals in total. But - I long for puffers, and I don't feel so good about first bying loads of other fish and then have to get rid of them in 6-12 months or whatever is needed for the tank to mature. What do you think?

Also, I wonder how low the pH of a DP tank can be, can they do well also at pH values lower than 6.5? pH in my tap water is 6.7, but I guess it will be somewhat lower in the tank due to roots etc., but this I will not know until the cycling is finished. I also have a very low KH, and thus possibly a risk of unstable pH values unless I add something to raise the KH. But then pH will also increase, I know. What should I aim at doing?

Last question - if I want to try other fish/shrimp with the puffers - how many of each species in the 30 gal tank? Filter is Eheim pro 3 250/2071. I like Otos, and I've heard they can (sometimes) be kept with DPs.

Thank you!

[jeromecarlyoung]

I think my ph is about 7 and that's ok.
I got 5 dp's in a huge tank. I got 6 otos. Both these fish like to be in groups of their own. I only found out that dp's like to be together when I saw a photo of them in tim wild. There was a group of about 40dp's together. Otos are the same. If you got the space then an ancistrus seems to be ok. I've had 3 different types of mini pleco with my dp's and no problems.
I don't feed mine snails. Only bloodworm and daphnia.
I guess adding fish slowly means the bacteria can adjust.
Adding new fish will mean the bacteria will adjust but the new fish need a long quarantine. One of my dp's has just expired though a new introduction. That was with 2 weeks quarantine.
Now treating the effected tanks. Hmmm...

[Pufferpunk]

I'm surprised the puffers don't nip the sluggish pleco's fins.

[jeromecarlyoung]

Yeah. It's unconventional but never had a problem. Well, maybe my rogue parasite but that's all.
My l204 is nocturnal and is a bit flappy with it's fins. No problems though.
The ancistrus can be impossible to spot against wood or gravel.
Seems to work though.

[Minipuff]

Okay, seems that at least Otos can be a possibility, then.

What about my other questions - viewpoints on that?

pH down to 6 - possible or not?

DPs in fully cycled but not yet mature tank - possible or not?

[G S P Freak]

I'm surprised the puffers don't nip the sluggish pleco's fins.

I've got a rubberlip pleco in with my 2 dps and they dont bother him at all, if anything theyre afraid of him lol

[Pufferpunk]

Mini--what do you mean, pH 6? That's the pH of urine!
How exactly is the tank cycled?

[Minipuff]

Pufferpunk - I'm cycling a tank right now. Fishless cycling, adding ammonia to build up a strong bacterial colony in the filter. I don't know what the pH will be in my tank when the cycling is finished, because this method of cycling influences pH. All I wanted to know was whether anyone has had success keeping DPs at pH values lower than 6,5 (for example, I've heard that it is easyer to get them to breed in soft to slightly acidic water). It's just a hypothtical case/question. Don't understand why you're referring to urine, low pH (even much lower than 6) is completely normal in some rivers, some puffers like SAP can even tolerate pH down to 5,5...?

Well, forget about the pH question, it's not that important. My MAIN question is about the necessity of having a MATURE tank for the DPs (by "mature" I mean a tank that has been running for at least 6 months, with fish in it, and stable water parameters), or if a fully cycled, but not yet mature tank is good enough. I'm sorry if it's difficult to understand what I mean, English is not my native language...

[bertie 83]

If your tank is fully cycled and you keep an eye on parameters for a while, pair that with large water changes and dps will do just fine in there. Sure the more mature tank would be easier to keep stable but it's down to you to keep the water pure. Just be prepared to test regularly with a decent liquid test kit (not strips) and keep up big water changes.
As for ph, that low would likely be damaging for many fish long term. River fish are found passing through endless chemistries on their way to,,, well wherever they are going. They might not like it there though. A stable tank (so long as extremes are avoided) will accommodate dps ime, good tank husbandry is a must though

[Minipuff]

Thanks, bertie 83, for your helpful answer. Just what I needed to know. I will aim at a pH around 7, so I guess adding small amounts of carbonates will be required in the future (also because of the low KH).

How often would you do water changes, and how much water, in that critical first period? I've read 50 % water changes once a week under "normal" circumstances, so I suppose that's not sufficient? I have the most important liquid test kits (NH4, NO2, NO3, KH, GH, pH, from JBL), and I'm using it every day now to monitor the cycling, so that part of the process I'm getting familiar with

[Pufftastic]

Just offering this: Your tank is lovely and large (30 gallons) for DPs. If you kept is nicely understocked (no more than 3 DPs, period, no other fish), then cycling is largely irrelevant. With that kind of water volume and a bio load from only 3 DPs, cycling with them in the tank would be harmless to them.

A 30 gallon with 3 DPs is still a very entertaining tank!

[bertie 83]

You need to check your water often, this will tell you how much water you need to change. I like doing multiple smaller changes (OCD) I currently sit at around 30% 3x weekly, a 50% weekly change should be ok in a tank so large. Puff tactics post above is certainly feasable due to the good volume of water you have but I strongly advise against it. If water is not tip top you can have issues and very large scale water changes (>90%) could be required regularly. Follow the path you are on and you will do just fine. Dps are kinda sensitive aggressive little tuffys lol

[Iliveinazoo]

Pufferpedia suggests a pH of 6.5-7.2, Fishbase suggests a pH of 7.5-8.3 and Seriously Fish suggests a pH of 6.8-8.0 with a degree of hardness between 5 and 25.

As you have suggested a target pH of around 7 does not seem unreasonable.

[bertie 83]

+1 to the above. Stability is far more important than messing around to get it spot on for it just to fluctuate

[Minipuff]

I'm greatful for your help, I'm already getting more confident that I might be able to handle those little rascals. I have decided to start up with the puffers when finished cycling, and I'm conctantly reading all I can find about puffer care. Then I will be quite prepared and at least have an idea what to look for when problems arise. The rest must come from practical experience, I guess.

The main thing I have to solve is the pH and carbonate hardness issue, then. I wish I didn't have to mess around with it, but I'm quite sure I will have to. Anyone who can explain to me how I can do this in practice? Given the following situation:

I will introduce the puffers when my tank has finished cycling. The cycling involves adding ammonia (soap free ammonia detergent - 9 % ammonia solution), thus pH is fluctuating strongly in my tank right now, and I'm not able to tell what pH will be when I stop adding ammonia and start adding fish. As mentioned, tap water is 6.7, but roots and the biological processes in the tank will most likely keep pH lower than this, which I understand is not ideal for DPs. I have to order the puffers from the pet store when the tank is fully cycled. Then I have to keep adding ammonia until the puffers arrive, to maintain the bacterial colony, maybe for a week or more - depends on when the pet store can get hold of DPs.

So, I need to find a way to reach a target pH (not necessarily 7.0, but just something more DP-friendly than my aquarium water can offer, if it turns out to be too acidic) and carbonate hardness (preferably >2 degrees dH to keep pH more stable) BEFORE the puffers arrive. This is the tricky part, because I will still be adding high pH ammonia at this stage. Can I assume that pH in my tank is at it's "normal" pH e.g. 24 hours after adding ammonia (if the tank is cycled, all added ammonia and all nitrites developed should be consumed after 24 hours or less), and then adjust the water parameters to the target values (e.g. by adding sodiumbicabonate) just before I add the next dosage of ammonia? Or should I feed the bacteria with something else the last days before puffers arrive?? With less sensitive fish, adjusting water parameters gradually over a couple of weeks would probably work out, but for puffers the water quality needs to be absolutely tip top from day one since they are so sensitive to changes... My goodness, it's damn hard to exaplain this "dilemma", but I hope someone out there understands what I'm trying to say!!

Pleeease help - thank you!