How to distinguish the baby sabahensis and GSPs ?

[Celyon]

We have debated this a long time...and we can't agree!
I'm starting to wonder if mine are sabs because my big one is getting to 7 inches. I have to get a better measure to make sure.

Why are sabahensis more expensive?

I have seen your pics in your post"My GSPs",and I am sure to say that both of them are sabahensis,because the area around their mouths and eyes is indistinct,and there is no pattern.GSPs won't be over 5 inches,and all of the GSPs have distinct patterns on their heads.If you don't agree with me ,then show me a picture that a GSP over 5 inches,which has a distinct pattern head.That's almost impossible.

We do see the differences, I know my Puffers look different with longer snout and patterns. The problem we have is that we don't know if mine are just variant of the gsp. We don't know if they are gsps that just look different or if they are unique species like sab.

There is not enough research to tell us for sure.

Scientifically, I can only say they look like sabahensis.

I agree with you that mine might be sabahensis. Truthfully, I think they may be sabahensis. But, we can't say that scientifically for sure. I can certainly call mine sabahensis because they do look like sabahensis. No one would argue with me too much about it. Because they could be. It's just on a genetic level I can't say for sure.

Well,I think you are right,and we need scientific evidence to get the 100% right answer.What I suggest is just judge from their appearance,and I think this is the best way to distinguish them when lacking the scientific evidence.

[purplecandle]

Don't feel bad...this debate has occurred often!

I think some confusion comes in because Puffers that look like mine tend to grow fast quickly, which makes one think they could be sab.

[Celyon]

@Purple Candle: His Pics. The last one labelled GSP looks very much like the ones Dekkers illustrated and described as sabahensis. Your puffers are in my opinion what is classified as GSP, although I am certain, there are several species or subspecies or regional varieties within this species. They have not been described yet und one will quite surely need to apply genetic methods to to clarify this topic.

ok I was confused there for a second!

I'm almost determined to get them DNA tested when they die just to settle the matter! I'll just keep calling them gsps with a few sab characteristics. Doesn't matter, I love them just the same...fat little boogers.

That's ok,I still hold the opinion that yours are sabahensis,even though their patterns are spots,and the GSPs won't be so large.I don't think the GSPs will be over 5 inches,unless anyone can show me a more-than-5-inches GSP's picture,which has a distinct pattern head,just wait for the scientific evidence.

[Celyon]

Don't feel bad...this debate has occurred often!

I think some confusion comes in because Puffers that look like mine tend to grow fast quickly, which makes one think they could be sab.

I love this kind of debate,and I can learn the westerners' opinions towards those fish that we all love.

[Corvus]

It's very well possible you found a way to differentiate between different populations within the T. nigroviridis and related species/subspecies. I just wouldn't call something a T. sabahensis, when it does not fit the first descriptions of this species. It's like calling a cow a horse. As a sidenote: Chinese scientists work the same way. This is no question of eastern vs. western, but rather classification in science (which follows international standards) vs. classification in the hobby.

[Celyon]

It's very well possible you found a way to differentiate between different populations within the T. nigroviridis and related species/subspecies. I just wouldn't call something a T. sabahensis, when it does not fit the first descriptions of this species. It's like calling a cow a horse. As a sidenote: Chinese scientists work the same way. This is no question of eastern vs. western, but rather classification in science (which follows international standards) vs. classification in the hobby.

Well,I have to admit that you're right,and what I wanna tell you is that seldom Chinese scientists are doing these kind of research,if not,the Chinese fish keepers won't be so confused.

[Corvus]

Oh, well some of the best studies on some puffers are actually from China, since China started to breed some of them for the Asian market. The Chinese studies on T. ocellatus from the last about two decades hold more information on this species than anything done in other countries.

There has been almost no progress with regard to T. nigroviridis taxonomy in the last decades, though, no matter from which country. The last relevant papers on this species/cluster of species to my knowledge were "only" about the breeding. However, not even from these studies, it was clear which ones were males and which one were females, which can be another reason for smaller morphological differences within a population.

[Corvus]

Another PS:

Here's what Dekkers defined as sabahensis: www.thepufferforum.com/forum/album_ ... pic_id=646
He also thought it was a subspecies of T. fluviatilis, rather than T. nigroviridis, a point that was changed by later works.