IMNSHO cruel would have been leaving them at the pet store to die. They wouldn't have made it a week the way they treat them, and they were telling the customers they were freshwater fish too, so even if they were bought, you can imagine the outcome.
In my experience animals don't seem to grow and thrive or *appear healthy* in a small cage living in their own filth for six months, they look unhappy, and won't last long at all. I admitted I have them in too small a tank, and I dont have a problem with a few full grown puffers occupying a 55 gallon tank, but I don't think a 2 inch long puffer needs a 15 gallon tank to himself, I just can't beleive that much. I will be putting them into the 29 gallon tank as soon as I have money (and don't lecture me about money, I'd planned to have the tank setup by now, but I just spent $1500 in unexpected vet bills for a sick puppy, that got sick because of someone else's dog was sick, and they didn't care to contain the animal... so maybe it's cruel that I'm making the puffs live a bit longer in their tank then they should, but for now they'll have to deal with the fact that they would have been dead if we didn't buy them, and tough it out till the money is there, and the room they are going in is finished.) for the lid, light, stand etc. I guess I'm just a cruel person, but whatever, I'm at least TRYING to get help for them...
Black Discoloration on one of my fish
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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YBeNormal
- Former Staff Member
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- Location: Northern Virginia
- Contact:
You're questions are valid--but I'm not sure you're going to like the answer. The typical "rule" is 1" of fish per gallon. A more conservative "rule" is 2" per gallon. These "rules" are nothing but general guidelines that someone came up with along the way though to help newcomers understand stocking limits and they don't work very well at all when it comes to large-bodied or overly messy fish or when you get into brackish and saltwater fish. GSPs happen to be large-bodied, messy fish that eventually require high-end BW to full SW conditions, so the 1" per gallon rule isn't even close to reality.
30 Gallons for a single GSP an 55 gallons for two GSPs is not a "*bit* overexagerated". In fact, these are minimum recommended tank sizes and is considered to be conservative. I have two GSPs in a 55g tank right now. One of them is just under 4" and the other is approaching 5" (Not counting the tail). Does the tank look empty? Not at all. In fact, it will be upgraded to a 75g tank in a couple of weeks and I have absolutely no plans for tank mates now or in the future!
Bottom line: This topic has been discussed numerous times on this forum and others. Yes, you will find conflicting answers on the web and likely from your LFS. The advice you receive on this forum is based upon many years of research and personal experience from people that have kept multiple types of puffers alive for 10, 15 or more years though. You are more than welcome to question the recommendations, even to ignore them entirely. Bookmark the hospital forum though 'cause you'll be visiting it often!
30 Gallons for a single GSP an 55 gallons for two GSPs is not a "*bit* overexagerated". In fact, these are minimum recommended tank sizes and is considered to be conservative. I have two GSPs in a 55g tank right now. One of them is just under 4" and the other is approaching 5" (Not counting the tail). Does the tank look empty? Not at all. In fact, it will be upgraded to a 75g tank in a couple of weeks and I have absolutely no plans for tank mates now or in the future!
Bottom line: This topic has been discussed numerous times on this forum and others. Yes, you will find conflicting answers on the web and likely from your LFS. The advice you receive on this forum is based upon many years of research and personal experience from people that have kept multiple types of puffers alive for 10, 15 or more years though. You are more than welcome to question the recommendations, even to ignore them entirely. Bookmark the hospital forum though 'cause you'll be visiting it often!
--Bob
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Phaedrus
- Former Staff Member
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- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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I don't think you were being cruel. Cruelty entails knowingly doing something harmful to another living thing. LFSs usually have no info to go on when they get the fish. Any research they do is limited to the vast amount of misinformation already out there.
I don't hold it against you and I don't think anyone else here does either. As I said, you sought out information and want to have healthy pets. That's great.
And we've given you our opinions on what needs to change in the situation to make them as healthy as possible. It's up to you to decide what to do now. You aren't a cruel evil person for not having a giant tank for you fish.
The sooner they are in the 29g the better. I appreciate that you're trying. It's a lot more than most people do. So kudos to you.
I don't hold it against you and I don't think anyone else here does either. As I said, you sought out information and want to have healthy pets. That's great.
And we've given you our opinions on what needs to change in the situation to make them as healthy as possible. It's up to you to decide what to do now. You aren't a cruel evil person for not having a giant tank for you fish.
The sooner they are in the 29g the better. I appreciate that you're trying. It's a lot more than most people do. So kudos to you.
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Boxermom
- Former Staff Member
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- Location: Wisconsin
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Yes, and for that I commend you. I know you have heard a lot the last few days that you didn't like and didn't expect and am glad that you are open to the idea of improving their lives. Yes, sometimes financial situations can be a strain, I fully understand that with my numerous tanks and two rescue dogs that have had way too many health problems. My point is that once someone finds out how detrimental a situation is yet refuses to improve that situation, that is a person who is being cruel. If you remedy the situation for your fish as soon as you possibly can, that's different.imweip wrote:I'm at least TRYING to get help for them...
I tend to overstock my tanks from that which is recommended, but the difference is that they are only slightly overstocked and I'm religious about maintenance. Weekly and often bi-weekly water changes with vacuuming of substrate and cleaning the glass.
I would suggest you try testing your tap water and/or finding out from the city what their water quality is like. Ours does the same thing, leaves a ring in the sink/toilet and stuff in the bottom of the sink drain. Its not dangerous, just not something we drink ourselves (tastes pretty awful to me). So we have bottled water delivered to the house for drinking. But its fine for the fish with some declorinator.
I apologize if I sounded overly harsh in my previous post, but any hint of animal cruelty really sets my hackles on edge and I tend to include fish in that. :16:
Tina
Puffers: Auriglobus silus x1, Tetraodon travancoricus x1, Tetraodon turgidus x1, Tetraodon miurus x1, Tetraodon nigroviridis x2, Tetraodon baileyi x2, Tetraodon lineatus x1, Tetraodon palembangensis x1
Puffers: Auriglobus silus x1, Tetraodon travancoricus x1, Tetraodon turgidus x1, Tetraodon miurus x1, Tetraodon nigroviridis x2, Tetraodon baileyi x2, Tetraodon lineatus x1, Tetraodon palembangensis x1
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Bred
- Former Staff Member
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I admire your optimism, but that's not how stunting works.Phaedrus wrote:But even if they are stunted, moving into a larger tank is still an improvement, and you may notice a growth spurt as they "stretch out".
Agreed it would still be a great improvement, but only insofar as it prevents further stunting. It will not undo the damage.
"I don't think you were being cruel. Cruelty entails knowingly doing something harmful to another living thing. LFSs usually have no info to go on when they get the fish. Any research they do is limited to the vast amount of misinformation already out there.
I don't hold it against you and I don't think anyone else here does either. As I said, you sought out information and want to have healthy pets. That's great. "
Sorry quote function wouldn't work for me...
I appreciate that you feel that way, but I was kind of getting the feeling that some of the others here felt that way towards me, so I got defensive. Our life lately has been one bad turn after another. One of the neighbors dogs gave my two beagle puppies Parvo through the fence (despite having all their vaccinations, didn't know that was possible), my wife's cat died (it had some kind of weird respiratory infection that is almost unnoticeable until they die from it, seriously, no coughing, sneezing, weezing or anything until the day it died, and that was like 3 hours prior), and one of our Beta fish died, probably because he was old, but it still sucks. (all of this in reverse chronological order, if it matters)
Like you said, I was just looking for information. I had no idea there was such misinformation about puffers. I figured the pet store didn't know what they were talking about, and that's why we looked online to see what they needed, but apparently that was wrong too. We never knew we wanted puffers, we just saw them in a store and said "oh lets get those." And truth be told, our first one died days after, and that's because it was in a freshwater tank with other bigger fish that probably beat up on it. We were told they'd be fine together. We researched it some, and thought we had adequate info for them, but again it was wrong. It appeared that the info was right because they were doing so well for so long, until we put that sixth fish in there.
I did an about 30% water change tonight, and they seem to be doing better, I'll do the same tomorrow or the next day. At the rate we're recovering from the dog in the hospital incident it may be a few weeks til they can be in the new tank (to allow for cycling and all, which I need to read up on. Links would be appreciated). The F8's are about 1.5 and 1 inches long (two of them), how long would they be able to survive healthily in the 10 gal before needing a bigger tank? I want to make sure I separate them out so they are in the right water type. (again this pisses me off because they had the GSP's and the F8's in the same tank at the pet stores.) Ok I'm going to go relax with the wife now since the sick girl is doing a bit better.
I don't hold it against you and I don't think anyone else here does either. As I said, you sought out information and want to have healthy pets. That's great. "
Sorry quote function wouldn't work for me...
I appreciate that you feel that way, but I was kind of getting the feeling that some of the others here felt that way towards me, so I got defensive. Our life lately has been one bad turn after another. One of the neighbors dogs gave my two beagle puppies Parvo through the fence (despite having all their vaccinations, didn't know that was possible), my wife's cat died (it had some kind of weird respiratory infection that is almost unnoticeable until they die from it, seriously, no coughing, sneezing, weezing or anything until the day it died, and that was like 3 hours prior), and one of our Beta fish died, probably because he was old, but it still sucks. (all of this in reverse chronological order, if it matters)
Like you said, I was just looking for information. I had no idea there was such misinformation about puffers. I figured the pet store didn't know what they were talking about, and that's why we looked online to see what they needed, but apparently that was wrong too. We never knew we wanted puffers, we just saw them in a store and said "oh lets get those." And truth be told, our first one died days after, and that's because it was in a freshwater tank with other bigger fish that probably beat up on it. We were told they'd be fine together. We researched it some, and thought we had adequate info for them, but again it was wrong. It appeared that the info was right because they were doing so well for so long, until we put that sixth fish in there.
I did an about 30% water change tonight, and they seem to be doing better, I'll do the same tomorrow or the next day. At the rate we're recovering from the dog in the hospital incident it may be a few weeks til they can be in the new tank (to allow for cycling and all, which I need to read up on. Links would be appreciated). The F8's are about 1.5 and 1 inches long (two of them), how long would they be able to survive healthily in the 10 gal before needing a bigger tank? I want to make sure I separate them out so they are in the right water type. (again this pisses me off because they had the GSP's and the F8's in the same tank at the pet stores.) Ok I'm going to go relax with the wife now since the sick girl is doing a bit better.
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Boxermom
- Former Staff Member
- Posts: 2182
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:34 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
- Contact:
Here is a wealth of information, including really good information about cycling.
http://tropicalresources.net/phpBB2/articles.php
In addition, you can purchase a product called BioSpira from many places that will "instant" cycle a tank. Make sure that its kept refrigerated or it will kill the bacteria and be useless, and make sure they give you the right kind (it comes in FW and SW varieties). Don't let them conn you into using any other cycling type of product that isn't kept refrigerated, its useless. BioSpira is the only stuff currently available that works.
http://tropicalresources.net/phpBB2/articles.php
In addition, you can purchase a product called BioSpira from many places that will "instant" cycle a tank. Make sure that its kept refrigerated or it will kill the bacteria and be useless, and make sure they give you the right kind (it comes in FW and SW varieties). Don't let them conn you into using any other cycling type of product that isn't kept refrigerated, its useless. BioSpira is the only stuff currently available that works.
Tina
Puffers: Auriglobus silus x1, Tetraodon travancoricus x1, Tetraodon turgidus x1, Tetraodon miurus x1, Tetraodon nigroviridis x2, Tetraodon baileyi x2, Tetraodon lineatus x1, Tetraodon palembangensis x1
Puffers: Auriglobus silus x1, Tetraodon travancoricus x1, Tetraodon turgidus x1, Tetraodon miurus x1, Tetraodon nigroviridis x2, Tetraodon baileyi x2, Tetraodon lineatus x1, Tetraodon palembangensis x1
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Phaedrus
- Former Staff Member
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- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Misidentified puffers are extremely common. Ceylons, figure 8s and GSPs can look extremely similar, especially when small. In fact there is a thread going on right now where someone thought they had a figure 8, but upon seeing a video of the puffer, it appears to be a ceylon. Completley different fish with vastly different requirements, but unfortunately very close in appearance to the untrained eye.
It's hard to say how long they will be healthy. Keeping up with water changes and getting them seperated asap is the best you can do.
I can guarentee that once you get them into proper living quarters with proper salinity, they will perk right up.
Any stunting, as bred mentioned, is irreversible. Limiting any further damage is the best you can do.
If you have any questions, we're always here to help.
It's hard to say how long they will be healthy. Keeping up with water changes and getting them seperated asap is the best you can do.
I can guarentee that once you get them into proper living quarters with proper salinity, they will perk right up.
Any stunting, as bred mentioned, is irreversible. Limiting any further damage is the best you can do.
If you have any questions, we're always here to help.
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Pufferpunk
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T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
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Common plecos grow to around 18". To use the quote function, you need to click on it before & after the sentence/word you are quoting.The pleco might survive
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"