Trouble in paradise

[BedScien]

How big of a footprint would you recommend? I probably can't afford to upgrade but just out of interest

[RTR]

I have probably had less than 0/4 (5?) success rate with 3 F-8 in a 40-long (48x12" footprint), but up >2/3 success rate in a 75 (48x18" footprint), both sizes well-broken sight lines and more "shelters" (partly open caves) than fish. BBGs also survived as breeders in the larger tanks. I never tried them in a 120 (48x24" footprint). The 75s had coral rubble piles for the BBGs. All the fish were immature when the tanks were set up. I think but could not swear that all going into a single tank were from one tank of young fish from the LFS. I only very rarely mix fish from different shipments, especially puffers - that usually does not work for me.

HTH

[BedScien]

This is probably a tedious question but could you explain/link me to an explanation of your scoring of success? And also what constitutes a success?

[bertie 83]

Rtr has likely the most experience with f8 puffers out of any one on this planet, he has run countless studies with likely 50 tank years or more. The info he will give you is from these studies/personal experience. He might not have a link but trust his word,

[RTR]

To me the F-8 is one of the most attractive puffers, one of the most active puffers, and one of the easiest puffers to provide for in captivity. As I came yo puffers after years of being a Ciclid nut, I ame to puffers as already experienced fish keeper and breeder, got to skip some of the issues novices tend to go through - which I think was a big help. IME puffers in general need good water, some easy routine care, and visually complex environments, and good food. As with most captives, there is an uncertain adaptation period to tank life. If you get them through that, the F-8s are hardy and long lived.. as wth a number of Cichlids, they do best with some visual but not direct open contact with con-specifics. (=others of the same species). Without that they may become relatively inactive as older fish (10-20 years). As they are relatively small fish, they do not require massive tanks, so multiple tanks of these fish is not a terribly expensive practice.

On scoring such as "0/4 (5?)", that would be read as: "zero of four, or maybe 5, trials were long-term (more than 5 years, up to 15+ years) were successful in the specified tank sizes. In the lager tank size, the majority were successful, in the smaller tanks, none were successful. "Success" to me means no fighting to repeated injuries or requirement of breaking up the test group in the same time span.

If we could tell the sex of the fish when small/young, we might do a bit better, but that is a guess.

HTH

[FishFan]

A short term solution could be to place the bully in a "baby net", a box shaped net used for breeding guppies, for example. It hangs on the inside of the tank providing a mesh enclosure so guppy moms won't immediately eat their live born babies. A baby net with a plastic decorations that provides a hiding place can help break a territorial or bullying habit and give the others a rest so they are not exhausted and can better hold their own. After a week or so put the same decoration in the tank at one end and the bully may keep it as his territory (if F8s are territorial). These net enclosures are cheap and available at most LFS.

-R

[RTR]

Breeder cages or nets would IMHO be only very short-term useful. Puffers, especially active fish such as F-8s, need exercise regularly and routinely. I could not and would not confine an F-8 for a week in a breeder box myself. To me that would be cruelty. NIMFT (not in my fish tanks). I would either separate the dominant fish into an adjacent tank with water exchange between the two tanks to provide swimming space while maintaining sight & small/taste/pheromones exchange between them, or I would plan on returning the dominant fish or maintaining it as a singleton forever. Incompatible puffers for me have tended to remain so indefinitely. If juvenile fight, adults can and will kill.

FWIW, YMMV (for what it's worth, your mileage may vary). Personalities deepen with maturity more than they mellow out. Territoriality grows with and after puberty. In the wild it may be seasonal, but in captivity it tends to be chronic. That is likely due to the stability of our conditions. We do not generally provide seasonal variations.

[Pufferpunk]

I could see a puffer getting seriously depressed very quickly, if confined like that.

[BedScien]

Thanks all

[FishFan]

Maybe I misunderstand the situation.
1. Current setup has two fish potentially stressed/depressed and at risk of getting sick or being bitten/eaten.
2. It is a stress risk to the bully if he is quickly moved to a newly set up tank with the change in water chemistry and potential water quality issues as the cycling adjusts.
3. A breeder box may be stressful to the bully, but would end the risk of #1.

Reiterating RTS's statement "Breeder cages or nets would IMHO be only very short-term useful" at least as I envision the risks, a breeder box may be the lesser of the three risks and the least cruel. A tank divider would be a better short term solution if one can be obtained in a reasonable time, but a lot depends on how stressed the victims are and the risk that the bully will inflict a bite or kill a tank mate.

Regardless, a long term solution such as RTR describes is also needed.
-R

[Pufferpunk]

IMO, there is a large chance the bullying may never stop. It's the nature of the puffer. Unless #1 you get a MUCH larger tank, packed with decor, breaking up the lines of sight, #2, 2 tanks or #3 another puffer (needing a larger tank also).

[BedScien]

On the contrary, it appears my fish have stopped bothering each other. I'm not sure what did it.

[RTR]

Individual to individual aggression is the natural (i.e., wild) method of dispersing the fish into sufficient territory to support the individuals. In tanks, the territory is limited by the tank keeper's selection. The underdog has no escape to safe unoccupied territory.