another thread on feeding...ughh...

[shaner]

seriously tho,

so re-visiting my past memories on feedig Achmed our big fahaka for 4 years, i felt that i was not feeding him properly, i have read the feeding articles on this site and it seems to me there is some concern in my head and maybe confusion, my past was a Exc chef and have been in the foodservice for over 25 years finally getting out and going to a factory job, with that being said i know quite abit about nutrition, freezing, thawing process, availability etc....

after reading some of RTR's comments i cant agree more that the freezing and thawing process really destroys nutritional content in some foods while other escape fine from the process, and some of the things we feed fish have absolute 0 nutritional value, so what is one to do,

Vita chem seems to be the top choice in food prep for fish care, so am i to assume that after one thaws the product we just "Marinate" it for a day to get the vitamins in, some foods do not "suck" up anything and mearly penetrate the first layer of tissue is this sufficient in what we are doing?

Snails- since snails are a live food, it would make sense to really focus on the diet of the snail more so then that of the fish, with the theory that we all accept that you are what you eat? (if we eat healthy we are typically healthy, if we eat junk we are fat and lazy etc....) ?

Mussels- Achmed was fed a good amount of Green lip and Pei Mussels, i have read that this can lead up to a lack of Vit B in fish, while mussels do indeed carry some b6 and b12 it is indeed marginal... as well as all the seafood listed on our list...

so with that it, seems to me that the diet of mussels, crab, prawns are mearly more for his beak then for his diet, a snail source that can be loaded with better nutrition should be better for the fish overall?

which is kinda of following on the article, so when you all feed what do you do....?

i would be curious to actually observe what a puffer really eats in the wild, do they attack small fish, like a dog do they eat grass if they are not feeling well, in this case weeds in the water, algae etc... do they eat primarily one thing over the other....

I know i am not breaking any new ground here, not the intent, the intent is to try and get a diet for a fish that really no one truly knows what they eat in the wild, we all assume that they eat what we have been told, but....is there more to it... or are we simply over-thinking it.

It seems to me that a fish held in captivity with ultimate conditions, no threats, no parasites, no hunters, should live an extremely long life providing we can provide what nature provides in the wild...

as for me i am setting up another tank for snails so i can focus just on their diet and get the healthiest snail i can so i can pass that on to baby fahaka...

thoughts.....

[Pufferpunk]

I think if you put the vits in the thawing water, the food will suck up a lot more of it while thawing. Zoe is another good brand of vits.

[RTR]

Basic problems, which are commonly ignored:
1. Comparisons between the wild and captivity are in general totally false and thus more misleading than helpful.
-fish in the wild which are algae grazers also get non-trivial quantities of micro- and barely macro-inverts, plus some easily visible inverts and/or larvae . That generally ignored fact makes havoc of attempts to offer "wild diets" to captive fish. Captive diets are not ever valid copies of wild diets. Wild carnivores in general prey on wild herbivores - this is not just for fish but land critters as well. For captive fish we frequently have little or no info on what their wild diet really is at various life stages - the info just is not there or is so buied and/or poorly recorded that we cannot know what the wild reality is.
-Most wild animals such as fish do not reach puberty. Captive survival is not much better on the average. But knowledgeable hobbyists are an entirely different ball game. Their fish are likely to live ten years or better if they make it through QT. (provided that they are not in so-called community tanks). You cannot compare the wild and an advanced hobbyist's tanks - those are entirely different worlds. An advanced hobbyist keeps small fish near or over 10 years, mid-sized fish can go anything up to another decade. Large fish may match that time span or go significantly longer, but that is very dependent on the individual species or at least the family. Captive breeders do not last as long as non-breeders. There are massive stresses involved in breeding, only some of which are the hobbyist's or professional's control.
2. Few hobbyists stay with only one group offish for decades. Fewer hobbyists stay in a given hobby life-long. Jobs, family, location changes, health, etc. all play non-trivial roles there.

Cultured foods are in general best, but can be too limited as total diets. Vitamins are an attempt at ensuring at least adequate nutrition, but some variety of foods are still very often or generally needed to keep nutrition adequate. Some rather common hobby fish diseases are nutritional at least in part if not totally. Consider H&LLE.

We can only do the best we can with what we have to work with. Supplemental vitamins are just one tool which we have available, and so I do use them - not always and not religiously - I don't so much always and every time, but I do the best I can.

[shaner]

so really then, using a vitamin such as vita chem in this example and a good varied diet is really the best we can do then...ok...

and i understand that trying to document anything in the wild is extremely difficult if not impossible esp fish in this case..

in my situation the fahaka has his own tank obviously, 180G, excellent filtration, proper heat, light etc....

would you say RTR, that a good balanced "Captive" diet as you used would be better then their "Wild" diet?

i would imagine it should, be but i am by no means anywhere able to make that statement, i would guess there would be less chance of disease, parasites etc... in a Captive diet, although i do have to wonder fish nutritional need have to be much different then human needs and that is where maybe some of my head scratching comes in... we humans need calcium, vit d etc... for bones, skin, cells etc... i have to assume that fish need that also but not in a sense that the average guy such as myself needs that is kinda what i am searching for i guess, does any one really know what a fish needs to be strong and healthy... because there seems to be a lack of nutritional value in some of the seafoods we give them....

i find this very interesting and will have to dig around some, more...thanks for all of your thoghts...

[RTR]

The honest answer is that we have no idea. Fish, especially such highly specialized critters as the puffer family are highly evolved and specialized from one species to another that we are groping in the dark. Their natural ecology (diet, habitat, mating & breeding, lifespan in the wild) is not well known. Have you seen the photos of the wild structures/patterns of some males breeding sites? They look like Mayan art from their pyramids. We have only seen those relatively recently. We have few clues to their exact dietary needs, other than that their toxin is not theirs from scratch, but a bacterial toxin which they obviously eat in the wild. Is that "conciously" selected? We don't know. In the wild do they mate long-term or just briefly? How much do they migrate as adults? Is that done for food or mates or both? Over the decades I have been in this hobby I have become strongly convinced that at least 90% of what most hobbyists "know" is absolutely wrong. We can keep a high % of captives in tanks for longer and healthier lives than 99+% of their wild kin. Verry, very few wildlings survive 10-20 years. Captives should. But we can breed only a very few. Only one (and it is the smallest one) has been commercially bred. We are still in the dark on much of their husbandry.

We can procide "adequate" diets, but they cannot be too simple. We cannot rely on one or a few foods to provide asequate diets long term. It appears to me that we cannot even use simple tank set-ups to keep these fish long-term (10-20+ years). Nature is complex, the wil is extremely complex and not very well known. We know SAPs from the main channels only, not in their breeding in the flood plains. That is terra incognito to us. IME, puffers do best if they can see conspcific and and not have physical contact with those con-specifics. Try doing that with the larger puffers. It took me an 8 x14' room to house 3 Fahakas - madness! And $$$.

So, feed a varied diet (fish markets), do not over-feed (one of the hardest things to learn --fat fish don't live long lives), and try to keep the conditions as stable as you can. The highest water quality you can manage is the best. If the fish becomes inactive, do more water changes, if thatdoes not help, hang a mirror againat one end of the tank for a few day every few weeks. They seem to need enimies or strangers to threaten. Puffer are intelligent and adept at training their owners. But nevert trust a Fahaka - they are dangerous fish. They are also beautiful, but two of the three I have kept were never trusted, or worthy of trust.

HTH

[shaner]

most awesome reply RTR, thank you so much for your insight, i will certainly take your words and implement a few changes on things that i have been doing wrong... thank you again, i will keep studying and trying to find more information, one is as good as the amount of info one can find...

[RTR]

Here on this forum and it predecessors we have been and continue to trying to learn and to spread the word, but we are only scratching the surface. We still have a long way to go before the puffers can be handled as well as the Cichlids. And the puffer family, while smaller, is far more complex. Realistically we are in kindergarten on their captive husbandry, and we are not even sure of what all we need to learn. Evolutionary biology has some massive quirks hiding in the corners, and we are working with birthday candles where we need floodlights. But as long as we folks such as all the folk here we will continue to learn. Pufferpunk and I have learned a lot over the years, and we already have a great crop of heirs around here.

GWATCDR, we will someday understand these bizarre fish.

[Pufferpunk]

GWATCDR? Now that's a new one!

[JRC3]

^
Had to Google that one. LOL

God willing and the creek don't rise (idiomatic, US, informal) Barring unforeseen circumstances.

[RTR]

The favored sig line of the editor of the GWAPA newsletter many moons ago.

Sorry - I thought everybody knew about goggling even relatively well know comments as first letters only...

[shaner]

thats a new one for me also...

well as it sits, i am trying to not overfeed by anymeans with this new little guy, i have been able to mix it up a little with him, bloodworms, clams and some mussels...little bites of course the GSP's that i have had for over 5 years now are enjoying the new diet also... the seem to be much better,

I understand that really we dont know alot about these types of fish in comparison to what we should or need to know for proper care, but yes i would agree there seems to be some pretty stout people on this forum and we just go forward...

has anyone had any luck with any types of "Seaweed" from a hanger like they do on SW tanks... may try that also...

[bertie 83]

The only green foods my fahaka would eat was peas, shelled and he loved them! I soaked mine with the meaty foods and vitamins, he would always take the peas over meat, he would get the meat when I stop dropping peas lol

[RTR]

Many hobby fish will eat canned green peas if you pop the outer "husk?/shell?/membrane" off.

[shaner]

alright will gave that a go also...

i guess i am at a point in this hobby where i feel i have the water parameters controlled to the best of my ability, stable, temp, WC's on a very reg basis, no funky chemicals etc... just the pure water that i can have...

so now i am at a point in the hobby where i feel comfortable enough to start exploring food options for the fish i choose to keep while one of them is indeed semi rare i have to try and to whats is best for the fish... not that i did not before, but now i am more concerned in general on what and how i am feeding... so i will try many things some may work some may not...but with all you here...dont think i can go to wrong...

thanks for the replys will keep everyone posted...

[RTR]

Just try to avoid getting frustrated with the lack of valid info on hobby fish nutrition. Controlling feeding levels and getting quantity and nutrition levels balanced is the hardest part of keeping fish. That is both from commercial food producers trying to get us to massively over-feed (coupled with water quality issue from insufficient water changes after overfeeding) -that combo is the commonest cause of fish early deaths in beginning hobbyists. I still think that I over-feed. But I am learning...