Vita-chem question

[Infinity8]

hey guys

I've been soaking Feather's frozen foods in Vita-Chem's marine formula. Now that I've gotten my two DP girls settled and eating (already on frozen bloodworms, since that's what they were eating at the store), do I need to get the freshwater formula?

Are the two really that different? Or would it be safe to soak their worms in the marine formula too?

[Pufferpunk]

F8s are actually found in FW in nature.

[JRC3]

I am not convinced bloodworms absorb much. How can it get through the outside skin?

I say this by saoking foods in IP meds...Snail flesh starts to break down quickly in those meds but bloodworms seem to show little difference.

IDK

[Pufferpunk]

I feed live blackworms Vitachem & crushed old flakes krill & plankton.

[Infinity8]

F8s are actually found in FW in nature.

Oh. I wasn't sure about that. But I had asked the manager which formula I should go with since Feather's in brackish...he told me go with marine.

Tried to get blackworms the day I got the girls, but some lady had cleaned them out two days before, and they're not due for another shipment for a while The girls have shown no interest in the snails I've dropped in for them. So for right now, nibbling on bloodworms just to keep them eating. Do I need to switch the Vita Chem to freshwater for BOTH tanks or...????

[Pufferpunk]

I would.. Also look into FD plankton for them. I buy that in bulk. Can you pre-order blackworms from the shop? I get a lb at a time & they like me to order ahead, so I don't clean them out.

[RTR]

There is obviously some confusion on vitamin soaks. Any food which has been frozen will,while thawing or after thawed "leak" They will lose intracellular fluids and some solids -transported out via the fluids. They can and will also absorb some materials from the fluids surrounding them. Bloodworms are not worms in the garden sense, they are an immature stage of an insect. When previously frozen and thawed for feeding to fish, they will lose nutrients to the fluid in which they are thawed, or lost from their bodies in the freeze-thaw process, but materials added to the thawed food will to some extent also adhere to the carcases. Live California blackworms will similarly absorb and lose some nutrients when pre-soaked in extra materials such as vitamins.

Frozen/thawed brine shrimp lose essentially their entire body contents in the thawing process, which makes them poor food for FW fish, as those do not drink water ordinarily, so have no access to the body nutrients of the thawed shrimp diluted in their aquarium water. SW fish in FW or light BW likely would have some access to the frozen/thawed shrimp nutrients as they may still drink water, but only when the osmolarity of the tank water exceeds that of their bodies. But frozen/thawed brine shrimp have almost irresistible flavor, so are a great appetite stimulant which can be quite useful if co-fed with new and unfamiliar foods. The co-feeding can be dropped when the fish have learned that the new food is a food on its own.

Puffers as a family arose in marine conditions, and most of the family is still marine/SW. Some members are listed as brackish, and may breed in SW or in FW, depending on the fish species. Some others are adapted to FW so fully that they breed in FW. All of this highly specialized background, coupled with the full adaptation of some species to FW, including breeding in FW, does not make the fish-keepers job easier. Their adaptability and specialization and peculiar genetics does make them less sensitive to water density/salinity than most purely FW fish, but to date only the FW members of the group have been reliably bred by hobbyists.

HTH

[Pufferpunk]

RTR, should F8s get FW or SW vitamins?

[Infinity8]

PP, I'll definitely look into the plankton. I think I remember Elmer's (the store in question) having that around. there's a couple other places I'll call around for blackworms. Would mysis shrimp be better in the mean time, if I can get them to eat it? They took a few bites of the raw shrimp I gave Feather last night.

Eager to hear RTR's response.

[Pufferpunk]

Mysis is always better than brine. People shrimp is great, too!

[Infinity8]

Mysis is always better than brine. People shrimp is great, too!

Feather thought so too. He almost tugged the forceps out of my hand when I tried to take it away!

My-shrimp!

[RTR]

To be honest, I don't know. But I've always used FW vitamins as their water is so light (density is low). Their cycle bacteria are FW forms and they seem to need carbonate/bicarbonate hardness as much or possibly more than marine mix, My handling of them is more like FW than SW except that I do not use live plants.

If I had the time and energy I would play more games with their water make-up. Dr. Ebert kept all the fish he labeled BW in higher densities than I keep F-8s. I have always wondered if that was to keep the carbonate hardness up where F-8s do appear to need higher carbonate hardness for long life. For me it was easier and cheaper to boost only the carbonate/bicarbonates and leave rest of marine mix low. That still makes high level partial water changes practical. Someone much younger will have to find the final answer to that question. But few of us are sufficiently stable in residence and tank time and space to run that sort of long-term trial (15-20 years).