whos kept a mbu with other fish??

[RTR]

A week is meaningless. We are, or should be concerned with a decade or two minimum.

I'm afraid that fishkeeping for me is scaled and planed by decade, not weeks or months. I guess that I am long out of date. To me, fish are not ephemeral. After all, even a school of Neon Tetras are good for a decade.

[E78704]

Not arguing with that philosophy but there aren't many fish in the trade, at least not dither species, that have a natural lifespan of ten years. I'm not going to presume to speak for anyone else but I can surely say that I learn just as much from the fish I have lost as the ones I have managed to keep alive.

There is a very succesful breeder of Tropheus here in town and he straight-up says that you have to learn how to kill a species before you can really learn how to keep them. Not talking "kill through incompetence" but rather, to understand "what happens when they interact and why do they behave the way they behave?". In other words, he is not afraid to take risks to learn things and that makes a lot of sense to me. Now, that is not to say that I'm advocating the arbitrary killing of our pet fish and I intend to keep our Mbu alive for as long as possible but the point being, you don't really learn anything by just sticking one fish in a tank by himself and keeping him there until he dies of old age. The vast majority of fish species are social in nature and for me, at least, the enjoyment I derive from this hobby is watching them interact with each other.

Only my 2-cents, as always.

[bertie 83]

Please bear in mind properly cared for aquarium fish long outlive their wild relatives. I have 21 +\- year old goldfish, neons around the 10+ year mark and danios of around the same age who still swim like youngsters. It is certainly possible anyway

[E78704]

Please bear in mind properly cared for aquarium fish long outlive their wild relatives. I have 21 +\- year old goldfish, neons around the 10+ year mark and danios of around the same age who still swim like youngsters. It is certainly possible anyway

Like I said, not disputing any of that. My point was that we learn as much, if not more from what negatively impacts our pets as from what maintains them. Sure, you can put goldfish in a tank by itself and as long as you feed it and change the water, it will live forever. Just like any fish. How many goldfish could you keep in a given sized tank? And at what point do they outgrow it? What happens when you put a different species in there? What happens if you have, say, a dozen goldfish in a tank and one pair starts to spawn? Does that adversely affect those other parameters? There's a lot to learn by exploring questions like these. For me, anyway.

[bertie 83]

Oh absolutely I agree there are a million factors, just stating there are many fish which will live for 10 years plus, of we take away some of these factors I:e overcrowding we can dramatically increase their life expectancy.

[E78704]

I actually don't think overcorwding is a factor. Look at commercial aquaculture. Poor nutrition, poor water quality, aggression from tankmates are much higher on that list in my experience.

[bertie 83]

Poor water goes hand in hand with overcrowding, stressed fish live shortened lives be it from aggression, poor water/ nutrition or any combination of many other factors.

[RTR]

Some of us have already learned how to and how not to keep fish. We are here to help others learn how to keep them as well. We would be falling down on that job if we suggested only that the keep the fish improperly to learn how to keep them alive. The knowledge base on captive husbandry of fish and inverts has grown exponentially in the last half century and continues expanding. It is not necessary for everyone to learn from scratch by repeating all the mistakes of the past. That is what teaching is about. You build on past knowledge and hopefully expand that knowledge base well beyond where we are now. There is no reason for everyone repeat all of the past failures. It would be better for them to further expand the available knowledge base. There will still be enough failures to serve nicely as horrible examples.

[E78704]

Poor water goes hand in hand with overcrowding, stressed fish live shortened lives be it from aggression, poor water/ nutrition or any combination of many other factors.

Again, no disagreement in principle but all that assumes we know, for example, how long a certain puffer fish "ought to" live, how much space it "ought to have", and so on. The issue is that we really don't know those things. Just keeping one Mbu, for example, in a tank by itself for 10 years or whatever, does not really help us learn any of these boundaries. Show me a person who has bred Mbu for dozens of generations or has kept Mbu hundreds of them alive for years. Or, show me a published, peer-reviewable article that says, "Mbu need THESE water parameters, THIS much room, and then they will get yay-big and live x-many years long". The issue is that on the internet, dogma tends to be accpeted as fact and "one experience" suddenly becomes the "the experience". That's what I'm trying to say.

Some of us have already learned how to and how not to keep fish...

That is an interesting statement, considering that I have done apprently, better with my Mbu than you ever did with yours, yet according to your accounting of how one of these guys "ought" to be kept, mine should not be doing well at all. Is that statement accurate?

...We would be falling down on that job if we suggested only that the keep the fish improperly to learn how to keep them alive...

Can you show me where I suggested that was the "only" way to kep fish alive? Did I not say that any fish could be kept alive for 10+ years if we wanted to?

...It is not necessary for everyone to learn from scratch by repeating all the mistakes of the past. That is what teaching is about...

Teaching? Whose mistakes? You (apparently) proved that a 180 gallon tank is not big enough for an adult Mbu. OK. What has NOT been proven:
-How big an adult Mbu can get
-How long an Mbu can live
-How big a tank is really necessary
-What exact water parameters they will tolerate before health adversity
-et al

Here is what I have proven...
-You do not need a 1,000 gallon aquarium to house an adult Mbu
-You do not need a overly complex filtration system to house an adult Mbu
-You do not need to change water 2x-3x wekly to house an adult Mbu
-Housing an adult Mbu is not disproportionately more expensive than keeping any other large fish aquarium
-Not all Mbu will eat their tankmates

The difference is that I am not parlaying my experiences into gospel. I invite anyone to question my experiences rather than trying to shut the door on them.

...There is no reason for everyone repeat all of the past failures...

Just because you might have personally failed with one trial does not mean that others will. That assumes the test methodology controlled every variable. Do you feel yours did?

There will still be enough failures to serve nicely as horrible examples...

Then why even keep fish, or do anything, in the first place?

[RTR]

When you can keep multiple species of fish alive into their twenties and breed and return far more high-quality fish into the hobby than I have killed, and when you learn to be less negative toward others who offer good and valid suggestions, I will listen to and even respond to you. But in the meantime I classify you as troll who joined this board to try to tear down the well-intended and valid advice offered here by many folks, I will consider you the troll who came on this board recently with an agenda to tear down multiple folks efforts and that makes you a troll who does not deserve and have not learned much about fish-keeping or on web courtesy. Personal attacks are not done here. They belong on MFK with you.

[E78704]

When you can keep multiple species of fish alive into their twenties and breed and return far more high-quality fish into the hobby than I have killed...

RTR, how do you know I haven't? Been keeping fish for 30 years. You can do a lot in with 30 years, just sayin'...

...and when you learn to be less negative toward others who offer good and valid suggestions, I will listen to and even respond to you..

Negative towards others? Good and valid suggestions? Such as the ones that get treated like gospel, by a person who only ever kept one, and unsuccesfully at that? That would be like me running a marathon, not finishing, and then telling everyone, "Don't waste your time unless you can train 8 hours a day and have unlimited funds". It simply isn't true. What's negative about stating a contrary experience? Maybe YOU don't want to hear it but that doesn't mean that it's untrue.

...But in the meantime I classify you as troll who joined this board to try to tear down the well-intended and valid advice offered here by many folks, I will consider you the troll who came on this board recently with an agenda to tear down multiple folks...

That is certainly your right to feel that way but why don't you show me one of my posts where I used some backhanded insult, rather than citing an actual firsthand experience? Again, RTR, just because you or I might not agree with someone else's remarks does not make them a "troll" or "trying to tear people down".

The problem is, people come to forums like this to learn something. They might ask about an Mbu on this forum, get that infamous link, then promptly have the door slammed on them. At least that is how YOU seem to post when the topic is brought up. It's funny that you use terms like "teaching" and "wanting to learn", since every discussion about Mbu seems (to me, at least) to get shut down pretty quickly. "I tried it and it won't work, so neither should you". Please correct me if any of that is wrong.

Aside from the fact that the alleged "needs" of an Mbu puffer that appear on the oft-linked info page on this site have been debunked many times over, ask yourself the question: "So, suppose so-and-so purchased a young Mbu (the common scenario) and now is stuck with it. How much of a service am I doing by slamming the door on this person (ironic, since it is the fish who will pay that price in the end, rather than the owner, and "It's for the better of the fish" is the common rallying cry around here...) as opposed to exploring the options with them in a non-judgmental way?"

I have no interest in teaching anyone anything about fish keeping but on the other hand, I do know from experience that people learn when you listen to them, rather than lecture at them from some one-way pulpit.

Just my 2-cents, as always.

[bertie 83]

Ok in answer to the questions, this is from members no myths.
Mbu can easily reach 30" plus we have had several members with this size.
They live well in to their 20s,
Tank size should be 2x length of fish front to back to turn comfortably and at least 5x length so they can swim, based on this that's 60" depth and 150" long. Depth is no real issue so let's say 24" for arguments sake. That equates to 935 us gallons. As for filtration I cannot comment on mbu, but my fahaka tank which runs 3x large cannisters and is planted heavily needs regular very large water changes to keep it clean. As for how bad can the water get before health is affected why would you feel the need to know this? I would not expose the cheapest most hateful fish to poor water full stop, all my fish get the same treatment which is why they will live happily and healthily with me for as long as I can keep them alive.

[E78704]

Can you show me some photos of a 30"+ Mbu? Or an Mbu which is 20 years old? I am talking verifiable proof, not just numbers tossed around on the internet.

Regarding the water changes, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that fish benefit from and should have as clean water as possible. I change mine frequently and reccommend it, too. What I am taking issue with, again, is the oft-cited Sticky which essentially implies that unless you have some sort of sewage treatment plant-type of filtration system and change the water daily, your Mbu will suffer, because that is simply not true and anyone is welcome to come to my house and see that for themselves, in person.

[bertie 83]

I will try to dig out some old threads for you to read in the morning as its midnight now and I have to be up in a few hours. It's a little too far for me to come lol however I would love to see a mbu that size in person.

[Master of Puffers]

A week is meaningless. We are, or should be concerned with a decade or two minimum.

I'm afraid that fishkeeping for me is scaled and planed by decade, not weeks or months. I guess that I am long out of date. To me, fish are not ephemeral. After all, even a school of Neon Tetras are good for a decade.

I know..that's why I bounded ny reply...

I kept them together for a week.

Due to circumstances beyond my control...

I certainly wouldn't recommend it as either a short or long term experiment. After we bought the fahaka and re-checked the water chemistry( and I worked as a water chemist in a water testing lab...I was working in ppm/ppb levels) and as the other tank was totally over filtered and we could see a spike in levels in the tank we wanted to place the fahaka in( even though we had conditioned the tank in the classic way).. we decided to go with the qc-ed numbers and try to re-stablise the new tank sans fish