Tankless Cycle

[hoblob]

Ok, so lets jump right in:

I was thinking about cycling while I was trying to sleep last night and had the idea to cycle a tank without the tank.

Tanks can be expensive, whether you get them from Petco, your LFS, custom made, online, or whatever (unless you're lucky enough to get them for free), so why not just buy your filter and cycle that and buy the tank at a later date?
From what I understand, most of the nitrifying lives in your filter, and the bacteria that lives in your substrate is important, but to a lesser extent.
What if you take a canister filter, put filter floss into it (I'm pretty sure this is where the bacteria live), fill it up to where it can run, add some ammonia, and seal it up?
If you need more gas exchange than I'm thinking you could run it through a tubberware container or something.

Benefits:
1. Takes up less space than filtering with a tank
2. Lets you buy the filter before the tank, letting you start your cycle sooner
3. Probably something else I cant think of at the moment

Questions:
-Will more gas exchange really be needed?
-Will seeding the canister be necessary (obviously will speed up the process)?
-Would this be a viable way to cycle a filter?

[bertie 83]

This would certainly work if you were running it on a container. The majority of the bacteria live in the filter, not all of it so it would be wise to have your chosen substrate in filter socks in the tub also. It would make the final large water change simple also, as you could just discard all the water from the tub and fill the tank up fresh just keeping the water in the cannister.

[Pufferpunk]

I have never done a fishless cycle. I have multiple filters running on all my tanks. Set up a new tank, move a filter. Put a new filter where the old one was removed.

[nzac]

you would have to run said filter on a bucket or something, without the water flow there would be no oxygen for the bacteria. Also you would want to fill it with some type of bio media, rings or such as the floss gets discarded when dirty you would essentially be discarding the BB as well. You would also need to keep dosing ammonia so the BB has a continuous food supply

I also do like PP and just use a filter from an established tank when I set up a new tank.

[bertie 83]

Moving filters about is definately the best way, I currently have 11 filters running on 3 tanks which is excessive but is just due to me cutting down on tanks, it's just temporary lol. However for those without this luxury this could well work on a tub or something.

[Iliveinazoo]

Intersting concept but your tub would need to be quite large to have the water level sufficiently deep for the filter to work and to house the inlet and outlets. I guess that you would also need a heater in there so as not to shock the bacteria when changing the filter over to a heated aquarium?

But given that you can normally buy a filter and tank combo and even if you don't you have to buy the tank anyway then personally I would just cycle the aquarium as a whole.

[Terrance]

I still have my old Fluval FX5 filter. Everything is back in the original box and packaging except for the filter pads. I put the pads in a large container with water high enough to keep the pads submerged and add a few drops of ammonia every other day. There is also a powerhead in there. It uses much less electricity than the canister. I'm ready for anything that might happen, but I'm trying to sell the whole Fluval unit with the guarantee of no cycling required.

[skoram]

Doesn't cycling also involve seeding bacteria in the tank substrate? Is the nitrification that occurs from the bacteria in the substrate significantly inferior to that which occurs in the filter?

[bertie 83]

Yes the vast majority of your tanks bacteria are housed in the filter. You do still get some in the substrate just not so dense in numbers.

[RTR]

I suspect that there is more than a little confusion in this thread about tank bacteria.

Nitrification is one of the most important cycles in semi-closed systems (normal fish tanks) for keeping fish in captivity. That is because the nitrogenous waste products are toxic and can kill the captive fish. There are different bacteria for fresh and salt water tanks. Filters are the most efficient homes for those bacteria if well maintained. By providing optimum conditions for those bacteria we can ensure their establishment and long-term survival. In multipupose filters (mechanical and biological) we do this by using different media. Sponge or filamentous (like threads or floss) media are commonly used for mechanical media, and harder or more permanent media for nitrification bacteria. The mechanical media should be first in the water flow to capture particulates. That media is rinsed well routinely. The harder media is protected from silt and particulates by the mechanical filter media. The biomedia/biomedium is rinsed only lightly to preserve and protect the bacteria there. The ntrification bacteria we employ are obligate attached bacteria - that means that they only grow and metabolize when attached to a (to them) solid medium. That material can be plastic or glass or stone or even sponge or mesh - just so long as it can be rinsed easily without dislodging the live bacteria coating it. Do remember that uncared-for filters do not work well. Without particulate-free well oxygenated water flow to provide nutrients and oxygen, the nitrification bacteria will die out.

If the filters used are not well-maintained, the nitrification bugs will live in the tank proper, on the glasses and ornaments and upper levels of substrate. They can therefore be disturbed by grazing fish and by the operator. This can work but carries risks.

The above is nitrification only. In addition to those bugs, there are literally hundreds to thousands of bacteria, inforia and larger inverts which all work together to produce a "mature" tank. "Cycling" refers only, repeat only, to nitrification. All of the other bacteria and other critters have their own roles in a smoothly operating mature tank. It can take weeks to multiple months for the whole system to mature.

Like Pufferpunk, I always multi-filter all of my tanks, so I always have "stealable" media which is fully matre (within 24 hours of being able to handle a newly set tank. I do test challenge such tanks with ammonia (<3ppm NH3-) to test fo full nitrification within 24 hours before new livestock is added. But I also have done a lot of experimentation on cycling tanks wit ammonia, as I was one of the beta-testers when Dr. Cris Cow (a.k.a. "Nomad") introduced the technique to hobbyists many years ago om Tom's Place in that site's monthly om-line magazine. That system works easily and quickly (14- to 21 days) if properly done. There is no reason why filters cannot be buctet-matured for nitrification, but the colony produced is directly matched to the ammonia loads, and concentrations are critical. More is not bettert. That is commonly ignored and creates a world of problems. Overdoing ammonia will radically slow the total nitrogen cycle needed in the filter. If you elect to bucket inoculate a filter it will work, but it will be "mature" only, for the total volume of the filter and bucket used. This is supremel important and must not be ignored. When the target tank is set up, you will need to "mature" the filter for the total volume of ammonia to be processed in that tank. If a five-gallon bucket plus one or two liter filter is used, that total volume of ammonia is all that filter can detoxify in 24 hours, so that the bacteria will need a few more days of ammonia feeding to handle all the posibble ammonia.

If you do not understand this, you can kill your new fish. Ask for more clarification if I have not made this clear.

HTH