Puffer Stocking

[sirhc]

Hi guys, found the forum a while ago while looking for puffer info, but this is my first post.

I've just finished fishless cycling and am adding ammonia to keep a long 100 litre (25 US Gallon) tank ticking over. I wanted to check what you guys think of potential stocking ideas. Am I better either putting one figure 8 and 3-4 bumblebee gobies, or 2 f8's? The tank is currently freshwater but would make the slow switch to brackish once I have the fish.

Any extra advice welcomed!

[bertie 83]

Stick with just one as you would be totally maxed with 2. Where r u from? Welcome to the forum

[sirhc]

Ahh thanks, think I may have made a mistake when writing down how much room they needed. Would you recommend losing the gobies as well? I'm from the South West near Exeter. Used to do some work for Plymouth aquarium but haven't kept fish at home in a long time and its not quite as easy as on a commercial scale!

[bertie 83]

You could add a few bbg if you like. Just 2 would more than max your tank when you consider water displacement etc

[Terrance]

Certainly you could add tankmates, but I like being conservative and keeping 1 Figure 8 in that tank is enough IMO.

[Iliveinazoo]

I don't think that 100 litres (26(US)G) is unreasonable for 2 Figure 8's if you have good filtration and keep up with your weekly tank maintenance, it wasn't too long ago that The Puffer Forum recommended 15(US)G for the 1st and 10(US)G for each one after. BBG's produce very little waste so around 3 would be neglibible to water quality. Watch out if you have a big external filter though because they're so small they may get sucked into the intake.

[RTR]

Filtration does not provide more space to avoid conflicts. Stress is a killer. Puffers are not schooling fish year-round or in small volumes. I will believe that tanks such as a 25 with two F-8s plus BBG will work long-term when you prove it to me, but not before that. That one you will have to prove to me. I think that most such tanks will fail once the fish are mature.

So far as I know, no one else has kept F-8s alive and healthy nearly as long as I have, and almost certainly not in the numbers I have kept. I have never been able to keep two together in less than a 33XL tank for as much as 10 years, and in that only once. As I can keep them singly to an average of 15 years, you have a non-trivial proof needed.

Long-term cohabitation of fish requires proof. Believe what you will, but proof requires testing.

[bertie 83]

Plus by the time you allow for waster displacement due to substrate and decor you wont have 26g.

[puffykid]

Filtration does not provide more space to avoid conflicts. Stress is a killer. Puffers are not schooling fish year-round or in small volumes. I will believe that tanks such as a 25 with two F-8s plus BBG will work long-term when you prove it to me, but not before that. That one you will have to prove to me. I think that most such tanks will fail once the fish are mature.

So far as I know, no one else has kept F-8s alive and healthy nearly as long as I have, and almost certainly not in the numbers I have kept. I have never been able to keep two together in less than a 33XL tank for as much as 10 years, and in that only once. As I can keep them singly to an average of 15 years, you have a non-trivial proof needed.

Long-term cohabitation of fish requires proof. Believe what you will, but proof requires testing.

+1 to RTR as usual.

[hadla]

Certainly you could add tankmates, but I like being conservative and keeping 1 Figure 8 in that tank is enough IMO.

besides the fact that they are pigs and the bbgs might not get enough food! thats why i brought my 2 bbgs back to the lfs.

[Terrance]

Certainly you could add tankmates, but I like being conservative and keeping 1 Figure 8 in that tank is enough IMO.

besides the fact that they are pigs and the bbgs might not get enough food! thats why i brought my 2 bbgs back to the lfs.

Anybody have a good way of feeding BBGs and other tankmates consistently? I can imagine a few ways, but perhaps F8s are smart enough to figure out what you're doing.

[hadla]

all i can think of is looking for the bbgs and giving hte f8 some food on the other side of the tank first then quickly putting some where the bbgs are.

[Iliveinazoo]

Filtration does not provide more space to avoid conflicts. Stress is a killer. Puffers are not schooling fish year-round or in small volumes. I will believe that tanks such as a 25 with two F-8s plus BBG will work long-term when you prove it to me, but not before that. That one you will have to prove to me. I think that most such tanks will fail once the fish are mature.

So far as I know, no one else has kept F-8s alive and healthy nearly as long as I have, and almost certainly not in the numbers I have kept. I have never been able to keep two together in less than a 33XL tank for as much as 10 years, and in that only once. As I can keep them singly to an average of 15 years, you have a non-trivial proof needed.

Long-term cohabitation of fish requires proof. Believe what you will, but proof requires testing.

I would recommend that the OP defers to RTR as he has carried out a study of Figure 8's under various conditions however I was under the impression that the recommendation that the Puffer Forum provided up until recently was based on that study.

All that I can do is speak from my own experiences and I have only kept two Figure 8's together for 5 years and counting, if I still frequent the forum when they pass I will post and describe how they were kept and under what conditions, I doubt that they will reach 15 as they were introduced to a small tank with Bumblebee Gobies, a Waspfish and a Halfbeak before I knew anything about stocking requirements or the nitrogen cycle plus the water that comes out of my tap regularly has 50ppm Nitrate.

Personally I would not keep a single Figure 8 on its own in a 26(US)G unless I ran at a low SG and had it heavily planted because I think it would look bare and a tank that may not hold my interest is a tank that could be neglected.

Plus by the time you allow for waster displacement due to substrate and decor you wont have 26g.

I'd assumed that the OP would have had substrate and maybe even a couple of bits of wood or rocks when I provided my opinion.

Certainly you could add tankmates, but I like being conservative and keeping 1 Figure 8 in that tank is enough IMO.

besides the fact that they are pigs and the bbgs might not get enough food! thats why i brought my 2 bbgs back to the lfs.

Anybody have a good way of feeding BBGs and other tankmates consistently? I can imagine a few ways, but perhaps F8s are smart enough to figure out what you're doing.

As said above I kept BBG's with my Figure 8's and the last two lived up until late last year (so over 4 years) which I don't think is too bad since the tank was unwittingly cycled with them. If you alternate between shelled food for the puffers and smaller foods that break up such as frozen bloodworms, seafood mix etc. and live brine shrimp or Daphnia then you will notice your Gobies feeding, remember that they only need a couple of mouthfuls as their bellies are so small, once or twice I noticed my gobies breathing too heavily on the bottom because they had gorged themselves on live foods. They picked at the food quite happily around the puffers.

[Flutter]

The recommendations given by TPF are based on minimum housing requirements (in consideration to welfare). RTR does not keep any of his tanks operating at the minimum. He aims for much higher, typically double the recommended water volume if I remember correctly.

Puffer tanks often do look empty. They aren't the right fish for everyone. If you aren't comfortable with an empty-ish tank and if it doesn't excite you then perhaps they aren't the right fish for you at this time. You're obviously doing your research (which is awesome BTW) and if you want to look into different fish you are more than welcome to ask here. Many of the people here aren't only experienced with puffers. If you're set on a puffer and they are right for you then feel free to ask all the questions you want to, we're here to help

[RTR]

Frankly, I would consider that an f-8 who only survived 4 years to be a total failure on my part. But Flutter is exactly right in describing my tank-keeping practices. I do not do "minimum" tanks period. Those figures we used in the early days of TPF were consensus of experienced puffer keepers. My personal figures went into that pool, but they were even back then the largest of the group contributing. Fish which should average 15 life spans are only young adults at 4. That is definitely premature death. That is too short a lifespan even for captive neon or cardinal tetras by at least 2x. For almost all puffers that is just not acceptable to me. I do not do "community tanks" and do not accept short lives for my fish. If I cannot keep them right - by my standards - I will not and do not keep them. Others must make their own choices.

My study on F-8s has not been published, but even those trials were not minimum tanks. The setup built for the trials did use 15 gallon tanks for each F-8, but had sumps (another 15 gallon tank) for each two test tanks which made the water volume larger than a 15 gallon tank for each fish by a factor of at least 50%. All the fish had view of other F-8s in nearby tanks. Almost all fish received pheromones, etc., from conspecifics due to the mixing of water from at least two tanks in the sumps. They could see each other but could not have direct physical contact. A lot of that is not at all average hobby set-up.

High-rock mass tanks, whether FW or SW, do not include any, repeat, any, allowance for water displacement by the LR in SW or inert rock mass in FW. The minimum tank size is IMHO never, repeat never, suited to high rock mass tanks. Double the size would be the absolute minimum for me and in practice mine would almost certainly be larger than 2x minimum. All of my high rock mass tanks have sumps/refugia to provide adequate water volume for the fish to be housed. That may sound expensive or wasteful to some folks, but in the long run it is actually pretty cheap. Set a system once and set it right and it is good for a minimum of ten years and up to 20 or more without significant extra costs beyond water changes and electricity for lights and pumps.

FWIW, YMMV.