If my pH is a stable 8.5...

[Pufftastic]

... do I need to have aragonite substrate for either F8s or a GSP?

I've been keeping fish (not puffers, however) for quite a few years, and my freshwater tank remains at a stable pH of 8.5 at all times. Comes out of the tap that way and stays that way. Are there additional benefits to the puffer from having that kind of substrate, aside from helping keep a constant pH? OK to use regular gravel if my pH is a constant 8.5?

I have a fully cycled 29 gallon that will house either 2 F8s or one baby GSP (FYI: I have a 46 gallon that a GSP can grow into, as soon as he needs it).

[Pufferpunk]

What's your kH & is that stable?

[Pufftastic]

Eeeek. No idea. I've only ever tested for pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.

[Pufferpunk]

Read RTR's posts on this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27228&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[Pufftastic]

Ow. My head hurts now from reading that.

I probably understood only about half of what I read, but it sounds like I should totally get the aragonite substrate. Okey-dokey.

[Pufferpunk]

LOL, RTR needs to dummy down for us!

[RTR]

It does not dummy down, unfortunately. Get both GH and KH liquid based test kits and learn to use them. For most fish, pH does not tell you much if anything other than overall water stability. Most tank's pH declines over time and is an indicator of too few or too small or both on routine changes. That is its primary value to general hobbyists

GH and KH tell you a lot. GH tells you whether or not the calcium and magnesium are present and stable. KH gives the same info on bicarbonate and carbonate. Those last two ions are essentially the same thing, shifting back and forth depending on the pH.

I would suspect that your water is very hard and very alkaline.

If your GH increases in the tank over time, you need to do more partials or larger partials, or both. If the KH decreases over time (relative to your source water) you need to do more or larger partials, or to supplement the alkalinity (i.e., carbonate/bicarbonate) with aragonite substrate. Supplementing is the easiest and cheapest and best way to stabilize carbonate and bicarbonate, which are used up in normal tank operation in FW and light BW.

Very few of us have water that hard and alkaline. You may be fine with inert substrates, but the only way to know is to test.

Initially check every other week. If those are stable, drop back to ~ monthly testing.

Does your utility provide you with TDS (total dissolved solids) data? If they do we could likely answer your questions quickly. Your tap water is quite possibly harder and more alkaline than most folks' light brackish water! My F-8 tanks have not held pH 8.5.

If you opt for the F-8s, some of us may likely try to con you into keeping and sharing tank data records. We could really use that data here. You could help us all learn more about what these fish really need in captivity. I would love to work with you on that project.

[Pufftastic]

I found my city's water quality report -- it says TDS is 1000 MCL (I have no idea what that means, however). I have a large goldfish tank on which I test the pH every couple weeks, right before and right after a water change. It's always 8.5-ish.

It's kind of funny that I do tests that I don't truly understand -- I only know that if there's a sudden, major drop in pH, my goldfish can die.

[Pufferpunk]

If there is that kind of drop, it is usually caused by the fish's waste. To keep GF happy & long-lived, you should be doing 90% weekly WC.

[Pufferpunk]

If there is that kind of drop, it is usually caused by the fish's waste. To keep GF happy & long-lived, you should be doing 90% weekly WC.

[Black Widow]

If there is that kind of drop, it is usually caused by the fish's waste. To keep GF happy & long-lived, you should be doing 90% weekly WC.

hey no spamming

[Pufftastic]

I do. I am the Queen of Massive Water Changes -- the goldies get 85-90% weekly, which I'm sure is why the pH stays stable. But I was told by the goldfish gurus to test it anyway, every few weeks. I've been keeping fancy GF successfully for many years. A brackish tank will be a totally new experience, though.

[Pufferpunk]

We want GF pics!!! In the proper forum, of course...

[Black Widow]

@ Pufftastic:

What you need to figure out is which puffers you want to keep, F8s or a GSP??? F8's are kept in low brackish condn's somewhere around the 1.005 end, whereas GSP's are kept in
high end brackish condn's say 1.015 - 1.018 eventually being kept in Full Marine condn's when they hit adulthood: 1.020+. Now Aragonite Substrate is really only a necessity for keeping high end brackish to full marine fish as Aragonite sand will buffer your Water PH to around 8.2 - 8.5 being optimum PH for Marine Water and thus for GSP's.

Now if your tap water is usually a PH of 8.5 then you would still need that Aragonite Sand for a GSP tank as you cannot guarantee your water will always be PH 8.5 and even if it was when you add the water to your tank, what you need to realize is that Water Chemistry is a Dynamic process meaning that water parameters change all the time (inc. PH even if just by a small amount) relative to what is going on in your tank. Now over time these changes could mean big swings in your PH which can be harmful to fish and to your water quality thus Aragonite Sand comes in useful as it maintains Optimum PH for your Marine Water via buffering it!

If however you decide on F8's then aragonite sand is not so much a necessity but you will still need to maintain your Water PH.

Hope that clears things up a bit!

p.s. a PH of 8.5 is really at the high end of Optimum saltwater PH, a better PH would be between 8.25 - 8.4

[Pufftastic]

We want GF pics!!! In the proper forum, of course...

Always happy to show off my goldies! New topic posted in the Other Photos section.

Walrus Head, that does clarify things for me somewhat. I'm definitely leaning toward keeping 1 or 2 F8s, because of the low brackish requirement. I don't know if I'm ready to take on the needs of a GSP. Nice to know I can possibly keep my current substrate if I go with an F8.