Grocery Store visit.

[akfm47]

Okay, so I just joined up last night, after having Stevesy (my Figure 8 puffer) for just under a year. He's been doing great, but has decided that he's bored with his frozen bloodworms. The frozen crab from the fish store just lays on the bottom of the tank, and messes up the tank.

I've gone to the fish store, and they were nice enough to give me some lil' snails. HE LOVED THOSE! The problem is, they're hard for me to get. The store says that they can't order ones that small for me. I've been reading about breeding my own, in here, but I'll try to tackle that at a later date. I'm more worried about NOW, because he hasn't eaten in 5 days.

I've printed off TPF's feeding list, and I'm going to go to the grocery store to try and get some of this stuff.

Here's where I need help:

So I go to the store and buy some muscles. Fresh or Frozen? Then I bring them home. Muscles are pretty huge in comparison to Stevesy. If the idea is having his beak scrape against the shell to get the muscle out, what do I do? Put the whole thing in there? That's way too much food for him. If I break up the muscle, he's not going to get that scraping action he needs for his beak, right?

Just need help before I go to the grocery store on my way home from work.

Thanks, and Stevesy thanks you too.

[Flutter]

Fresh and frozen are both fine. If you get fresh ones then it's best to freeze them overnight to kill off any parasites they may contain. Sometimes it can be a bit tricky to get them onto different foods. Fasting for a few days can often help speed up the process.

What you can do is pull the meat off and then the puffer can scrape at the shell getting the last bits off of the shell. You can also save the meat that you pull out and feed that as well. Does your puffer have long teeth? Crunchy foods are more for maintenance and they're unlikely to wear down a long beak.

Look into breeding snails a bit more, it's very easy. For the larger snails you can crush them with pliers so the puffer doesn't just pull out the meat. You're lucky your store will give you snails. The ones around me either won't or sell <50 for $5. No thanks

[akfm47]

Ah...I never thought to crush the snails. He just sucks them out, and my tank just has shells laying at the bottom. He won't choke on the shards, if I break them up?

Not sure if his beak is long-long, but I thought that it might be the main reason he's stopped eating the bloodworms. I read on here about trimming their beaks, but that is WAY above my skill level.

I'll try buying a big shell, and pull most of the meat off, leaving scrapings for him. Thanks for the tip.

I also read, on here, that soaking the blood worms in garlic could help. Have you ever tried that?

[J-P]

welcome to the forum

once the teeth are long, they can't really be naturally cut back. No amount of scraping and hard foods will help. It will have to be done manually.

[Flutter]

That will help him eat however they aren't a very good staple food. It's easy to crush up some garlic and put it in some water with the bloodworms, and let them soak for a couple hours. You should also be soaking food in a vitamin supplement. VitaChem is easy to get. Can you get us a picture later today?

[akfm47]

they aren't a very good staple food

Oh noes. I was grossly misinformed by my fish store. He's been eating nothing but bloodworms for almost a year now. He has had only had a treat of snails TWICE in that time.

I feel so bad.

I'll try and get a picture of him tonight for you. Just don't look at the gravel, 'cause I read last night that he should have sand and crushed coral instead. I'll be attempting to fix that soon too.

[Flutter]

It doesn't need to be sand but an aragonite substrate of some sort. You can also add some to the filter to tide him over until you can change the substrate.

Don't worry about mistakes you made, what's important is that you're fixing them

[J-P]

Regarding the gravel. Don't worry about it, you can use almost anything that you want.

Aragonite is a good but not as good as people make it out to be.

Reasons: It is a calcium based substrate that provides a buffer for your water. It helps provide the essential minerals that are leached out as the tank ages. That means that the buffering capability is finite. It will eventually become inert and just plain old "sand". On another note, if you must supply these trace elements and minerals to your tank via the sand bed, then you are not practicing good water management. It is the lazy mans way of doing things but in the end it will catch up to you. Finally, the requirements to keep an F8 will not require you to purchase any specialized substrate. If you were full marine and keeping corals or other high calcium requirement species then you can entertain the idea; until then, go with what you feel will give you the most enjoyment.

[Flutter]

We used aragonite as RTR highly suggested it as water hardness is so important for F8s. Many people have to supplement their tap water as it's either too soft or for the long term health benefits to the fish. It doesn't make sense to make blanket statements like that.

I asked a lot about substrate as our water is very hard and we weren't sure if there was a point to having an aragonite substrate. Our water tests around 16-20 and it was still strongly recommended. For less than $20, why risk it?

[volcomkrew4life]

Take a look at my last post titled "feeding time for my GSP". Its a perfect example of the whole technique that Flutter was talking about with leaving the meat on half the shell and letting your puffer scrape it off. Mine LOVES clams so you might wanna try them along with the muscles. It's important to get your puffer a little snail the size of his eye at least once a week. The PetsMart I used to get them from all the time for free just recentally decided to stop giving them to me because they could "mess up my tank and I could sue them..." Pretty rediculous but I went on AquaBid.com and found someone who breeds and sells them for cheap. There are a few people on that site that you can get them from and they'll send them in bulk for you. Then once you get some you can start breeding or just keep buying more and having them sent to you when you run out=] the ones I got were $8 for shipping and $2.50 for every 10 snails so I got 20 snails for a total of $13 which will last me about 5 months if I give him one every week. I'll probably give him about two every week or so but pretty good deal if you ask me.

[J-P]

It doesn't make sense to make blanket statements like that. For less than $20, why risk it?

It make scene because it makes scene. Why sacrifice a sand bed? That $20 is a put it in and forget solution. Which is not the case unfortunately. If one were to expect the water quality to remain unchanged for several years, then maybe. I know I wouldn't want to change out the substrate every 5 years, or 10 years...

While it will not hurt to have it, you may not get the look you actually want. Your test kits will tell you what is needed.

[RTR]

Sorry, J_P, But for f-8s you are missing the point. Marine mix at 1.003-1.005 specific gravity does not provide enough alkalinity to keep the tank stable with sufficient alkalinity. SFAIK, the calcium is trivial - if it is not trivial, it is sufficiently supplied in tandem with the solution of the carbonate/bicarbonate half of the compounds for us to be unable to read a difference associated with extended lifespan in F-8s (and possibly other light BW fish, but that has not yet been shown.

Also, you are in error on the eventual fate of the aragonite substrate. It does not become common sand. Common sand is silica bases. Our tanks cannot transmute calcium to silica. Aragonite substrates dissolve over time, as any reefer or FOWLR tank operator already knows it they have operated their aragonite substrate based tanks with thinnish layers of aragonite sand in the display. It has to be supplemented every few years due to solution. It simply dissolves

I do not understand how this in any way represents a "failure" - in your terms - in tank water management. In fact it is exactly the opposite. It is providing the required raw material which natural processes do in full SW. (LR nitrification still involves consumption of alkalinity, it only adds to that process - performed in biofilters in other tanks. Deep and relatively anoxic reduction of nitrate to gaseous N2 can only easily occur in full marine tanks, not light BW tanks as for F-8s. A light BW DSB could work, but at significanly greater costs than more conventional operation. The only other alternative of which I am aware to replenish dissolved carbonate/bicarbonate would involve either at least doubling water change volumes, or periodic operation of a so-called calcium reactor. That would be a control issue, more equipment, and would normally involve pressurized CO2. That is not as steady a process as simple passive solution from an aragonite sand bed - where the feedback of more alkalinity (and calcium) going into solution. The passive approach, requiring only adding more aragonite every few years, is exactly as done in long-tern reef or FOWLR operation. The observation that substrate does need replenishment is not at all a new observation. Perhaps some hobbyists did not realize that such solution of the substrate was highly beneficial to their tanks, but they are never too old to learn.

In my not-so humble opinion, anyone with the intention of setting the simplest possible long-term support system for F-8s and possibly other low BW fish would be foolhardy to use silica sand or other inert substrates in order to save a few bucks up front. It is penny-wise and pound foolish. I try very hard not to shoot myself in the foot that way. In fact I tend to use OE-RFUG (which is in and of itself a more complex setup) in such tanks to promote maximum water flow through the substrate and thus maximize solution of the aragonite.

HTH

[J-P]

Thanks for the reply and clarification.

From what I was taught, if there is a Ph issue in the tank using your sand bed to help correct the issue really only masks the underlying problem. The issue will continue regardless of that you use as a substrate.

"..normal conditions even aragonite is not particularly soluble. Those aquarists that are using oolitic aragonite to buffer their systems have pH values that are too low, in any case.
Bottom line, use the calcite, it will be fine for the sand bed. Make sure that the system's calcium and alkalinity levels are kept at normal levels by monitoring and the addition of the appropriates materials as necessary"

"...Although a sand bed can contribute to the buffering of an aquarium, if one is using the sand bed as the major way to buffer a tank, one will have all sorts of problems. Buffering of alkalinity and maintenance of calcium levels (and I suppose, magnesium, if you think that is particularly important (I don't) has to be done by testing additions of specific additives, and is largely independent of the sand bed."

I suppose it really all depends on that is coming out of the tap.

[RTR]

Your quotes are referring to Ca/Mg levels, aka GH, not alkalinity. GH has no known bearing on F-8 longevity, as those ions are not depleted in normal nitrification as bicarbonate and carbonate are. They are also obviously referring to SW, not light/low BW, which is an entirely different biochemical system and has quite different upkeep requirements.

What you refer to as pH (not Ph, please) issues are not pH issues at all but alkalinity issues. Someday hobbyists will get over their fixation of pH and perhaps learn something valuable about tank water management by doing so. The pH of tank water has significance only it that change indicate loss or gain of ions which may or not have significance for the captive creatures. Without direct testing of the particular ion groups involved, the pH tells you nothing useful useful. Ca/Mg ions have no pH effect, none whatsoever. The anions with which they are commonly associated in nature have massive pH effects, and thus magnify the confusion. Stick to the testing of the required ions (carbonate/bicarbonate in the wild and properly in tanks as well) in all tanks with filter-based nitrification and you and others will suffer far less confusion and likely fewer incorrect or inappropriate ideas of solutions to water management problems.

This issue and its solution are unique to high bioload low salinity systems, less than 1.008 specific gravity, or in the case of F-8s, 1.003 - 1.005 specific gravity. Here much of the bacterial component is identical to FW tanks, and nitrification is filter-based rather than LR-based (which is by definition in a high-alkalinity micro-environment, and where denitrification is also in similar high-alkalinity micro-environments even deeper in the LR pores).

There does appear to be a paradox involved in such discussions of captive handling of these fish. We know that these can and do move from FW to BW to SW environments at will. But from whatever underlying mechanisms, these fish live longest and healthiest in stable alkalinity environments. Captive environments with silica sand substrates offer zero alkalinity support. and thus are subject to constant and unavoidable depletion of alkalinity by depletion of two milli-equivalents of bicarbonate for every milli-equivalent of ammonia oxidized to nitrate. Providing a substrate which is carbonate/bicarbonate based at least provides some replenishment of these ions, which silica sand cannot do. If that substrate is used with RFUG, the water flow will provide better solution of the ions involved, and is IMO and IME is far better, but is not absolutely required provided that the set-up does provide decent water flow - which it should have in any case.

The odds are good that either a DSB sump or better a high-flow plenum sump would provide even better maintenance of the alkalinity, but such seems to me to be overkill in providing a sump for such generally small tanks and waiting the multiple weeks to commonly months for either of those options to achieve full operational status. That is especially true when OE-RFUG will be fully functional in normal cycling time for the display tank, with the advantage that it is all fully oxygenated and thus safer.

HTH

[J-P]

Thank you for the corrections (and now that we are way off the initial question from the OP ... sorry!! )

If the alkalinity is depleted by the system, wouldn't one just dose for that? In that scene you know exactly how much has been taken out and how much is going in. If there is a decline in alkalinity, will the substrate release the appropriate amounts into the water to compensate for this on its own (like a saturation point), or will it continuously release bicarbonate and carbonate at unknown rates?