cycling tank

[bigfatfish]

Dont forget e-bay - its called Kleen Off Ammonia. Thats the stuff I used.

[nehctik]

Thank you for the brand recommendation i'll order some now, wierd when i searched ammonia on ebay before i didnt see that stuff

[nehctik]

My kleen off ammonia arrived this morning, it doesnt state on the bottle the % of ammonia in it, after a brief search I found this (Which is apparently taken from the safety sheet for the product):

-------------------------------------------------
2. COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

INGREDIENT NAME
Ammonium Hydroxide
9 – 10%
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS:
None

--------------------------------------------------
4.PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES

Appearance: Liquid
Odour: Pungent
pH: 11.6
Boiling Point/Range: 1390°C
Flash Point: N/A
Flammability: N/A
Explosive Properties: N/A
Oxidising Properties: N/A
Vapour Pressure: 115mm/Hg @ 20°C
Relative Density: N/A
Solubility: In Water
Partition Coefficient N/A
Specific Gravity: 0.958 – 0.960
Vapour Density: N/A
Evaporation Rate: N/A

I also found this

Kleen Off is made by Jeyes Ltd in Norfolk, England. It is a simple ammonia solution in a 500ml plastic bottle.
More usually sold as a powerful cleaner it is ~10-35% Ammonium Hydroxide (NH3), that is ammonia in water.
This product is often sold in small DIY shops throughout the UK and cost around £2.50
You can find in online by searching for "Jeyes Kleen Off Ammonia Multi-Purpose Household Cleaner"
5 drops of this liquid into 10 Litres (2.6 US G.) of water will give you ~1ppm TA total ammonia reading.

Given im not very good at equations, how much of this stuff should I be dosing and when.

[bigfatfish]

Looks to be the same stuff that i used - just check that it doesn't foam when you shake it.

I seem to remember that you need to add a few drops at a time & then test for ammonia. You need to keep adding until the ammonia is at 5ppm. Then the next day, test again & if necc. add more ammonia to reach 5ppm again. Eventually you will get to a point, where the reading is zero - this means all is going well! For the next part, you will need to read the fishless cycling article cos I can't really remember the next steps/water changes etc.

[RTR]

I agree that you do need to add drop-wise and check frequently to read the actual concentration in the tank. That is because the actual concentration in the bottle is not terribly stable. It will change (generally downward) over time. The decay is not fast, it can be considered stable during the span of the cycling.

You do also need to know the KH of your water supply. Low KH water requires more care in cycling. I do not recommend 5 ppm for folks with low KH water - that involves a number of risks. A working concentration of 3 ppm will do the same job with a wider margin of safety.

Be sure to include the article cited below in your reading:

library/water-filtration/fishlessconsiderations/

HTH

[nehctik]

The test kit I purchased covers ammonia nitrite, nitrate, high and low ph, So I would go to a LFS to test the KH right? Also I'd test normal tap water correct? I ask as my brain does seem to want to work and I noticed at one point it says "Low-alkalinity or low-KH water" Is there a link between low alkalinity and low KH?

[nehctik]

Just phoned a LFS about 3miles from my home to inquire about getting a KH test done and they said they dont do them, I would have to purchase one, which I shall do, when theres more money in my bank, He asked why and I explained that I needed to know if the KH was low because of the fishless cycling and he said I wouldnt need to worry about that, our KH and general hardness was high. I realise I still need to buy a test kit for it and not just take his word, but for today thats pleased me, one less thing to worry about for now.

I did a PH test on my tap water and tank water both came out about the same.
I did both the PH and the high range PH tests,
The PH came in at about 7.5ish just below 7.6
The high range came in between 7.4 and 7.8

[RTR]

Both GH and KH test kits (liquid reagents) are required for good tank operation.

GH is general hardness or better, calcium and magnesium hardness. This is a measure of the ions which make water "hard" in the sense of difficult to create a lather with soap. Calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg ++) are requirements for life on this planet. These ions tend to build up in tanks with insufficient water changes.

KH or carbonate/bicarbonate harness is a measure of the carbonate (CO3--) and bicarbonate (HCO3-) ions in solution. These ions together determine the pH of the water. The relative proportions of the two depend on the current pH. They can swap back and forth between the two forms easily and quickly. These ions are used up in many tank processes, most notably in the oxidation of ammonia to nitrite and that to nitrate. that two-step process by tank bacteria uses up carbonate/bicabonate equal to 2x in milli-equivalents the nitrate generated. That chemistry-speak means that an operating biofilter eats carbonate/bicarbonate while it makes nitrate. All the fish and the inverts and infusoria and bacteria in the tank also need and require carbonate/bicarbonate. It is water and life's natural buffer, although others are used as well by life forms. For water it is primarily carbonate/bicarbonate. It is depleted with time and needs to be replenished to maintain tank stability. If depleted carbonate/bicarbonate continues unchecked, the tank bioology will crash.

Both of these test kits are needed to monitor water stability. It is not needed to test weekly with each partial, only periodically. But periodic testing is absolutely required to conform water stability. LFS testing is not sufficient.

HTH

[nehctik]

As I said I realise I need one and will be buying a test kit to test the KH and GH as soon as I can, should be before friday.

EDIT: Would the API Liqid GH and KH test kit, be sufficent?

[RTR]

Certainly. Those are the kits most used on this site. They will give you the info you need easily.

The more expensive field grade test kits are only needed if you doing experiment work and need much tighter data. They are not necessary for general hobby work.

Testing in the hobby is not needed for high and precise accuracy. What we really want to see is changes or trends - such as declining KH or pH. the actual precise measure is not as important as changes in the measurements showing differences over time and away from your source water. It is the changes that are important.

[nehctik]

Will be getting my GH and KH test kit tommorrow, Ive noticed a snail explosion in the tank, I knew there were one or two, but it seems theres been a bloom and ive got quite a few now, Ive started adding blanched carrot to the tank in hopes the snails will eat that rather than my plants.
Once I start adding ammonia will this kill the snails and if not, they wont absorb any toxins will they, I mean once my tank is ready and the puffers go in and eat the snails they wont then be toxic will they?

[RTR]

Common pond and ramshorn snails are not bothered by low levels of ammonia. I have used them (in quantity) to cycle tanks. High levels of ammonia (over 5 ppm) can slow cycling, don't go there.

There are no residual toxins which will persist after cycling other than nitrate itself. It is usually pretty high post-cycling, but a couple of 50% partial water changes will cut it down, or however many as are needed.

[nehctik]

Ok I got the api liquid KH/GH test kits and did the tests but i dont quite understand the results, I tested both tap and tank water to be safe, both came back the same.
This is the chart that was in the instructions


To get the required colour changes I had to use:
KH: 12 drops
GH 18 drops

So does this mean my KH is 214.8 ppm? And I wonder what my GH is since the chart only goes to 12 drops