Hello. I just joined the forum and now I'm already over here asking for help. Not how I imagined my tank being but oh well. Short story, we have lost two of our three puffers and nobody seems to have any more in stock so I am really afraid of losing the last one. We have a 37 gallon tank that was set up and cycling for a week before we added the fish. We had the store do a water test before we brought them home. The Figure 8 never seemed to care about eating and just layed around so when he died I wasn't all that surprised. He was still covered by the store's 7 day guarantee. The other two are GSPs and have seemed great until recently and we had even added two smaller Mono Sebeas who seem to be happy. My ammonia has gotten very high but all other numbers are fine. Specifically:
Ammonia: 5
pH: 8.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
SG: 0.008
After all my reading here on the forum I have done two water changes. The first one was about a 25% after around two weeks and then I did one two days ago and took about 50%. I'm using Prime for our water conditioning. At first the store (which is an aquarium store and not just a pet store) told us to use Ammo Lock. That seemed to do nothing. Last night one of the GSPs was just skimming the surface and bumping into things off and on. I figured he wouldn't make it through the night and sure enough he was dead this morning. The store has told me that I have to just ride it out and feed less often, maybe every other day. According to them since my tank is so new my biofilter is still trying to establish and my water changes are causing it to start over every time. According to the posts here I should be doing changes daily at this ammonia level. I'm so confused and can't stand to lose another puffer. I would love to add a few more if I can find anyone with them in stock but right now that seems to be rare. My husband said he wouldn't mind trying to order two from ThatPetPlace when we can get our tank where it needs to be. So now I don't know if I should be doing water changes or if I'm indeed starting it over every time and causing the biofilter to take longer to set up. Please help me avoid losing my last little puffer!!
To change water or not to change
Forum rules
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
Read this before posting!!
Since this board has been up, we have found there are several questions that routinely get asked in order to help diagnose problems. If you can have that information to begin with in your post, we'll be able to help right away (if we can!) without having to wait for you to post the info we need.
1) Your water parameters - pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and salinity (if appropriate). This is by far the most important information you can provide! Do not answer this with "Fine" "Perfect" "ok", that tells us nothing. We need hard numbers.
2) Tank size and a list of ALL inhabitants. Include algae eaters, plecos, everything. We need to know what you have and how big the tank is.
3) Feeding, water change schedule and a list of all products you are using or have added to the tank (examples: Cycle, Amquel, salt, etc)
4) What changes you've made in the tank in the last week or so. Sometimes its the little things that make all the difference.
5) How long the aquarium has been set up, and how did you cycle it? If you don't know what cycling is read this: Fishless Cycling Article and familiarize yourself with all the information. Yes. All of it.
We want to help, and providing this information will go a LONG way to getting a diagnosis and hopeful cure that much faster.
While you wait for assistance:
One of the easiest and best ways to help your fish feel better is clean water! If you are already on a regular water change schedule (50% weekly is recommended) a good step to making your fish more comfortable while waiting for diagnosis/suggestions is to do a large water change immediately. Feel free to repeat daily or as often as you can, clean water is always a good thing! Use of Amquel or Prime as a dechlor may help with any ammonia or nitrite issues, and is highly recommended.
Note - if you do not normally do large water changes, doing a sudden, large water change could shock your fish by suddenly changing their established water chemistry. Clean water is still your first goal, so in this case, do several smaller (10%) water changes over the next day or two before starting any large ones.
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aotto
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:28 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Stimpy - GSP
- Location (country): Texas, USA
Re: To change water or not to change
Also, I forgot to mention my other confusion. It seems you guys suggest feeding almost all live or frozen and the aquarium store is telling me crispy flakes and shrimp pellets should be the main diet and then maybe snails once a week so we don't "spoil them" or add to the bio load. Sounds wrong to me though.
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Pufferpunk
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T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
- Location: Greenville, SC
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Re: To change water or not to change
![[welcome]](./images/smilies/welcome.gif "welcome")
Sorry this has to be your 1st post but I'm glad you found us in time to save your last puffer! 1st of all, your shop has been giving you terrible advice & I would stop listening to anything they tell you. They never should have sole you all those fish, especially for an uncycled tank. Your tank is only large enough for a single (adult) GSP, so I'd not add anything else in there. Picture a fish the size & girth of a Nerf football.
Please read: library/puffers-in-focus/an-introductio ... d-puffers/
library/water-filtration/emergencycycle/
Do 50% water changes daily, until you ammonia & nitrite remain 0. If it looks to be getting worse, you may need to do these 2x/day. At this point, I wouldn't worry about salinity, you can raise that later, after the tank is cycled.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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aotto
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:28 am
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- My Puffers: Stimpy - GSP
- Location (country): Texas, USA
Re: To change water or not to change
I figured they were giving bad advice. Water changes seemed to make sense. When I did a 50% two days ago the ammonia didn't seem to get any lower and then the next day my GSP was skimming the surface all night and seemed disoriented and then died overnight. That's what made me confused about them saying don't water change and reading here to do it. I imagine his death was just a result of the damage already done before the water change.
As far as their diet goes I want to start giving them frozen, live and freeze dried food instead of the pellets and flakes because that seems to be the most healthy diet for them. I'm nervous about the live food adding to the bio load but I suppose if I remove any uneaten pieces promptly it will be fine. Correct?
I just love their little cute kissy faces and I'm sad to be down to one. He's being a trooper and hanging in while I learn and I'm determined to get his home correct and have him healthy so he can get to Nerf football size one day! Thanks for all the advice. I will do a big WC tomorrow and let you know how things are looking.
As far as their diet goes I want to start giving them frozen, live and freeze dried food instead of the pellets and flakes because that seems to be the most healthy diet for them. I'm nervous about the live food adding to the bio load but I suppose if I remove any uneaten pieces promptly it will be fine. Correct?
I just love their little cute kissy faces and I'm sad to be down to one. He's being a trooper and hanging in while I learn and I'm determined to get his home correct and have him healthy so he can get to Nerf football size one day! Thanks for all the advice. I will do a big WC tomorrow and let you know how things are looking.
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Pufferpunk
- Queen Admin
- Posts: 32976
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
- Location: Greenville, SC
- Contact:
Re: To change water or not to change
If you can, do a WC tonight. It's good you are using Prime, that will detoxify some of the ammonia.
Of course, you should feed sparingly for now & remove all uneaten food.
Flakes & pellets are a pretty poor puffer diet:
library/feeding/feeding-your-puffers/
Of course, you should feed sparingly for now & remove all uneaten food.
Flakes & pellets are a pretty poor puffer diet:
library/feeding/feeding-your-puffers/
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
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thrwnsprkz
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:24 pm
- Location (country): PA
Re: To change water or not to change
I feel your pain, sorry to hear of your losses.
the advice here is the best of the best from puffer owners to puffer owners.
I just went thru basically the exact same scenario.
I now have one puffer (of two) who survived but "cheepcheep" is doing great in his cycled tank now thanks to the help & advice.
as the've said puffers cant handle anything BUT a cycled tank.
IMO: your best bet to save your last puffer might cost you more than hes worth but It'll be worth it in the long run to know youve saved him.
PP, anyone... chime in here,
but Id try & get him out of the conditons hes in at all cost. maybe find a small aquarium (might take the opportunity to invest in a quarantine tank setup) my small 7gal quarantine cost me a bit over $20 for the tank, filter & heater. no lid or substrate just a few decorations.
I changed the water in that small tank with him 1-2x daily just to make sure the levels remained ultra low-zero.
Its a pain maintenece wise, but gives you time to then emergency cycle the display tank with "seedings" from a LFS & pure (no dyes or sulfactants) Ammonia. My tank took 10 days to cycle this way. monitoring the pH, Ammonia, Nirtrite & Nitrate levels, record them daily & follow the guide here to get started.
before you know it, your gsp will be good to go in no time
(not to mention you can use the small tank to house live food for your gsp later on)
the advice here is the best of the best from puffer owners to puffer owners.
I just went thru basically the exact same scenario.
I now have one puffer (of two) who survived but "cheepcheep" is doing great in his cycled tank now thanks to the help & advice.
as the've said puffers cant handle anything BUT a cycled tank.
IMO: your best bet to save your last puffer might cost you more than hes worth but It'll be worth it in the long run to know youve saved him.
PP, anyone... chime in here,
but Id try & get him out of the conditons hes in at all cost. maybe find a small aquarium (might take the opportunity to invest in a quarantine tank setup) my small 7gal quarantine cost me a bit over $20 for the tank, filter & heater. no lid or substrate just a few decorations.
I changed the water in that small tank with him 1-2x daily just to make sure the levels remained ultra low-zero.
Its a pain maintenece wise, but gives you time to then emergency cycle the display tank with "seedings" from a LFS & pure (no dyes or sulfactants) Ammonia. My tank took 10 days to cycle this way. monitoring the pH, Ammonia, Nirtrite & Nitrate levels, record them daily & follow the guide here to get started.
before you know it, your gsp will be good to go in no time
(not to mention you can use the small tank to house live food for your gsp later on)
Re: To change water or not to change
If I were you I would lower the SG and just work with freshwater right now. That will make things easier. Leave the fish in the 37gal, it'll be easier on both of you.
Do you know anyone with a FW tank? Do you have one? If so get some dirty media and put it in your filter once your tank is full of freshwater. If you can't get the media then get the dirty gunky squeezings from the media and put it in your filter. This will cycle your tank.
You do not have room for the monos in that tank. Please return them. You just have room for the 1 GSP only!
I have to go now but others can help you more.
Do you know anyone with a FW tank? Do you have one? If so get some dirty media and put it in your filter once your tank is full of freshwater. If you can't get the media then get the dirty gunky squeezings from the media and put it in your filter. This will cycle your tank.
You do not have room for the monos in that tank. Please return them. You just have room for the 1 GSP only!
I have to go now but others can help you more.
It is absurd to talk of one animal being higher than another. We consider those, when the cerebral structure/intellectual faculties most developed, as highest. A bee doubtless would when the instincts were.
Charles Darwin
Charles Darwin
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aotto
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:28 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Stimpy - GSP
- Location (country): Texas, USA
Re: To change water or not to change
The filter that I have is build into the lid. It's the Eclipse with cartridges and a BioWheel. My mom has an established freshwater tank the same size with a filter that hangs off the back. I'm sure I could get some media from her filter but I'm not sure where to put it in my filter since it's not a canister type. I got some snails for him today since those are his favorite. Last time I just rinsed them off and put them in but now I know I need to quarantine them. How long do I need to do that? Thanks for all your advice. I am working on a water change right now and so far today he seems pretty happy. I think I'm going to take back at least one of the Monos if not both since they do get so big. I'm irritated that the aquarium store let me buy so many fish, especially ones that get so large like the Mono. Oh well, what can you do? I will just have to get the tank cycled and help out our last little sweet puffer! Thanks again guys. I will update later after I see how the water change goes.
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Pufferpunk
- Queen Admin
- Posts: 32976
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Puffers I have kept:
T lineatus
T miurus
A modestus
T biocellatus
C valentini
C coranata
C papuan
C lorteti
DPs
suvattii
burrfish
T niphobles - Location (country): USA, Greenville, SC
- Location: Greenville, SC
- Contact:
Re: To change water or not to change
Monos are schooling fish that grow as large as your outstretched hand. It would take a minimum of 300g to house a school of them. Your bioload is already stressed with the puffer. Switch out your Biowheel with your mom's & you'll be off to a much better start.
You are getting sleepy... you only hear the sound of my voice... you must do water changes... water changes... water changes... water changes...
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
"The solution to pollution is dilution!"
-
jmiller
- Green Spotted Puffer
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:08 pm
- Gender: Male
- My Puffers: Dwarf - Lily
GSP - Emma - Location (country): USA
- Location: Kentucky
Re: To change water or not to change
I have the same tank and filter setup.aotto wrote:The filter that I have is build into the lid. It's the Eclipse with cartridges and a BioWheel. My mom has an established freshwater tank the same size with a filter that hangs off the back. I'm sure I could get some media from her filter but I'm not sure where to put it in my filter since it's not a canister type. I got some snails for him today since those are his favorite. Last time I just rinsed them off and put them in but now I know I need to quarantine them. How long do I need to do that? Thanks for all your advice. I am working on a water change right now and so far today he seems pretty happy. I think I'm going to take back at least one of the Monos if not both since they do get so big. I'm irritated that the aquarium store let me buy so many fish, especially ones that get so large like the Mono. Oh well, what can you do? I will just have to get the tank cycled and help out our last little sweet puffer! Thanks again guys. I will update later after I see how the water change goes.
Check here and see what I did. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24115&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45
John
aka MacKenzie, Bailey & TBD's pa-paw
aka MacKenzie, Bailey & TBD's pa-paw
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purplecandle
- Mbu Puffer
- Posts: 2019
- Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:18 pm
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Currently
2 Adult Green Spotted Puffers
1 Fangs Puffer
1 Baby Green Spotted Puffer - Location (country): USA (NC)
Re: To change water or not to change
When you change the water, do you vacuum it out and vacuum the gravel at the same time?
What type of test kit are you using? I am surprised that you are not showing nitrates unless you have a bunch of plants.
What type of test kit are you using? I am surprised that you are not showing nitrates unless you have a bunch of plants.
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aotto
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:28 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Stimpy - GSP
- Location (country): Texas, USA
Re: To change water or not to change
Yes, when I do water changes I vaccuum the bottom too and get any poop or food that has settled. I am using the API freshwater master liquid test kit. I have been hoping to see the nitrites and nitrates go up so I know it's converting the ammonia but not so far.
I did a 50% wc this morning and Stimpy seems happier. I'm anxious to give him a few snails but I'm waiting to see if they are healthy.
I did a 50% wc this morning and Stimpy seems happier. I'm anxious to give him a few snails but I'm waiting to see if they are healthy.
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purplecandle
- Mbu Puffer
- Posts: 2019
- Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:18 pm
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Currently
2 Adult Green Spotted Puffers
1 Fangs Puffer
1 Baby Green Spotted Puffer - Location (country): USA (NC)
Re: To change water or not to change
you don't want to see any nitrites. You want to seem Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, and Nitrates <20
You have a good test kits, are you shaking the bottles like crazy before using them?
You have a good test kits, are you shaking the bottles like crazy before using them?
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aotto
- Puffer Fry
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:28 am
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Stimpy - GSP
- Location (country): Texas, USA
Re: To change water or not to change
I'm shaking all bottles before testing and probably testing too often and driving myself nuts. I am glad my nitrates and nitrites are 0. I thought they may go up a little when the ammonia starts breaking down but if they stay 0 that would be wonderful.
My puffer is so bright green and his tummy is super white so I guess he's happy. His head is so shiny green I swear it could glow. He is up and alert more today too. I am not sure when to test the ammonia again after this morning's WC. He is at the surface a little more than I'd like (the other one did that all day before he died) but he swims back down and rests too so I suppose he's just checking stuff out. He used to wake up and rub himself all over everything in the tank and he hasn't done that today so maybe we are making progress. Thank goodness!
My puffer is so bright green and his tummy is super white so I guess he's happy. His head is so shiny green I swear it could glow. He is up and alert more today too. I am not sure when to test the ammonia again after this morning's WC. He is at the surface a little more than I'd like (the other one did that all day before he died) but he swims back down and rests too so I suppose he's just checking stuff out. He used to wake up and rub himself all over everything in the tank and he hasn't done that today so maybe we are making progress. Thank goodness!
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purplecandle
- Mbu Puffer
- Posts: 2019
- Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:18 pm
- Gender: Female
- My Puffers: Currently
2 Adult Green Spotted Puffers
1 Fangs Puffer
1 Baby Green Spotted Puffer - Location (country): USA (NC)
Re: To change water or not to change
You do want to see some nitrates...unless you have a bunch of live plants.