Heyo, its going to be a wild ride

[thrwnsprkz]

Heyo all,

not my common place to jump into a random forum like this, but Ive been doing nothing but research on gsp's since adopting two last week.
unfortunately, Im sorry to say this is no "feel good" story. I was misinformed about gsp's as it appears most people are.
Not by wal-mart tho, my local pet store (and a reputable marine store at that!)
I'm hoping I can read or ask for some good advice here, its a long story but Im hoping I can either save these two gsp's or if possible (anyone local to western PA???) let someone adopt them and look for a pair of dwarf puffers.

boring details(feel free to skip to clifnotes if in a rush): started when my gf's ferret of 7 years died... I knew him for 4 years now, he was a riot, but older and his time came. kinda threw my gf off a bit. I know she'll miss him indefinitely, I will too. But for christmas I found her a 20 gal aquarium set. Helped set it up, ran it a while then went to pick out some fish a few days later. Every things been running smoothly since.
fast forward another week........

I found a 10gal aqueon setup on sale. my gf has a lovely community tank, but I've always been intrigued with aggressive vibrant fish. so I indulged, I had an old stand and some other equipment for a 10 gal from my childhood back at home. so I set it all up, & had it running a few days. (I had no idea you could fishlessly cycle a tank, not even one employee at 4 pet stores mentioned it...)
went to the pet store in our area, not many of the fish stood out except cichlids. cant do that.

then I saw the puffer fish, well... they just about became my new favorite fw fish (little did I know).
I actually threw the guy some questions, how big they get? are they "hearty" enough for my new aquarium? (term I learned from the another petstore after xmas) etc... he told me what I wanted to hear & all seemed to check out, I was told two of these little guys and the neat blue crawfish I saw would do well in my 10 gal... (-_-)
but he insisted I get one of the larger crayfish so it could defend itself need be... ?(O_o)?
I didn't really want one of the larger ones & couldn't understand why the lobster would need to defend itself from the fish???, but he insisted & gave me a discount to persuade me.

took them home, acclimated them & watched the puffers nearly slaughter the crayfish in a matter of min. I pulled the lobster out and threw him directly into the gf's 20gal where he now resides.

holy crap was I in for a surprise when I searched "green spotted puffer"...
Ive done nothing but read up on these guys since and Im trying to weigh my options, but first: a little help.
I had no idea the ammonia & nitrites could kill these guys.

Ive since gone back to that petstore & told them what happened & explained my case, I must have spoken to one of the senior employees that day b/c the manager couldn't believe he would have even let me walk out of the store in my circumstance.

I told them Id rather give them back then let them die in my hands, my tanks new and un-cycled. Im literally changing the water daily now to help them recover. but I wanted to see if they could possibly care for the two gsps while I fishlessly cycle the tank? well, "no go"... ok, I anticipated this. thru the store owners advice now I walked out with a few things. live bacteria ("Dr.Tims One and Only", not stress-zyme), a 20 gallon tank divider, and "extreme garlic")
I wont be able to cycle the aquarium changing the water daily so Im hoping to place the gsps in the 20 gal temporarily (changing its water daily), he said use the garlic to get rid of IP's (I wanted a solution so I wouldn't contaminate the gf's tank with them...) & the live bacteria is for helping cycle the tank.

anyone have any other ideas?
I started out not knowing these guys need 0-nh3, 0-rIte, <10-rAte.
I let the tank get way outta hand off the bat. Earlier I had:
PH: 7.0-7.2
NH3: <0.2
N02-: 0 to <.2
N03+: 0
(I have started changing the water daily. the ammonia seems to get around .1-.2 before each change.
SG: <1.001, only b/c I started it as FW then set the salinity around 1.008 after learning they were a brackish fish. Since starting recovery procedures I have only been adding FW as I learned a jump of .002 would kill the bacteria cultures trying to form.

I have been performing 50% WC's each day now, My tank consists of a aqueon 10 filter (UUGGHHH), a 10-30gal heater set to 78deg, gravel and a false log with several holes/caverns atm.

Ive been reviewing the best "hangon" filters in the market that will work with both this aquarium and a 30 gal, I purchased an Aquaclear 70 over the Penguin 350 or Emperor 400 only b/c I read "Puffers dont like alot of water turbulence" (True or False???) since the Aquaclear has an adjustable flow rate... or should I return it in favor of one or the other?

My two fish became so lethargic I did a 75-80% WC first. Black lined bellies, esp around the mouth. one started a few days before the other than before you know it both were on the ground "sleeping" thru the entire day. not eating. and colors became a pale yellow. changed the water religiously to get the NH3 out. so far neither has eaten in front of me, I left some shrimp in the tank and I think they may have nibbled b/c they still poop.

two things:
-One fish has started to recover well, swims actively but still has black lining stress marks. the other Im afraid might not pull thru, its the one that first became lethargic. hes was the lesser aggressive of the two. I saw the other chase him a few times. but hes looking very thin & im afraid he hasn't been eating these last two or three days. his belly is concave and his rear sides are weak looking, he'll swim only when provoked but otherwise theres hardly a fin movement, only breathing & looking. Ive honestly contemplated euthanizing him (how???) b/c I hate to see him like this (for days now). I honestly dont think he'll make it.
-two: as far as IP's go, Ive now read garlic is probably a hoax. what do you guys use effectively for scaleless fish? I believe the tall tale sign is stringy poop? Ive seen both long clear poop <1" or so, and a few that had a couple chains of yellow balls. (wth?!?) is one or the other normal or worrysome?

opinions?


appreciate the advice & criticism,
thanks
~thrwnsprkz

cliffs: bought a 10 gal, was horribly misinformed, trying not to go bankrupt, fish are recoving but could use some help (listed in red above), love these fish & want to make this work now, but if all else fails Id like to try & help them & then find them a new home, maybe get a few dwarf puffers.

[trekenk]

Hi thrwnsprkz and welcome to The Puffer Forum you have certainly come to the right place. As you probably already know these cute little guys are going to need 30 gallons each = 60 gallons ( no getting around it). High brackish to full marine.

Here is a few links which might help you a lot. One on emergency cycling. Good Luck with them.

library/puffers-in-focus/an-introductio ... d-puffers/

library/water-filtration/emergencycycle/

[trekenk]

One more link on treating IP's.

library/hospital/internal-parasites-pre ... treatment/

[Flutter]

What a story that is! Trekenk provided some good articles for you to read, go for it. Aquaclears are great filters, I'd stick with that, puffers do like water with a high current but not throughout the whole tank in most situations. They need areas with low current as well for sleeping and such.

I would immediately start treating for internal parasites. I've used Jungle fizz tabs (the anti-parasitic ones) and in your situation I would treat the water and their food. You can treat their food by putting 1/4 of a tablet in 1/4 cup of water with the food and let soak for a few hours before feeding. What are you feeding them? Another sign of IPs is a pinched look. Your puffers should keep a roundish shape even when not being fed for a few days. If they're losing weight fast and looking pinched then they probably have IPs. Their bellies should not become sunken in.

It's obvious you're working very hard! Good job. Is there a way you can upgrade your tank to 60gal? Or at least 30gal if one passes away? Those minimums truly are minimums with GSPs. Many people feel that a 55gal is the minimum for one fish. You could also look at a 40gal long for one fish, that would be better than a 30gal.

[thrwnsprkz]

Heyo,
I was feeding them dried blood worms, ghost shrimp, & thawed shrimp but they havnt been eating the last 3 days.
I went & picked up live bloodworms and praziquantal powder today.
Isolated the two in my 7 gallon quarantine tank & began treatment after feeding them.
the recovering one ate a feast while the lethargic one still lies on the bottom of the tank with that pinched appearance, I still did not see him eat.
he will move only when provoked, flutter his fins but immediately stop when he doesnt need to.

you wanna know something awefully sad, after the active one ate I caught him nudging the lethargic one towards some worms, not once but two separate instances.
so sad.

so far the only clear ammonia for cycling I could find at all the hardware store contains just ammonium hydroxide & surfactant. thats the most basic ammonia I could find without added dyes or perfumes. its "red max clear ammonia".

ammonia is still at 0 in the 7 gal quarantine.
I added Dr Tims live bacteria when I started the tank today & I picked up a piece of filter media (no carbon) from the pet store this evening and placed it in each of the aquariums.

I took the praziquantal powders 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gallon instructions, laid the 1/8 teaspoon out on a piece of paper & "cut" it into 7/10ths (boy that makes me look bad, lol) then mixed it with a sample of water from the quarentine tank and put it in around 3 this afternoon. directions say to do a 25% water change daily & treat every 24hrs for 10-14 days. I also removed the carbon filter and put that piece of filter media from the petstore in its place. (this tank was also uncycled).

[J-P]

can you not take them back until the tank is cycled?

[Pufferpunk]

So glad you found us!
Any chance you could get them a larger tank, say--55g? I wouldn't even worry about cycling it, the dilution of that much water for the waste of 2 lil puffers is pretty great.

What's the tank divider for?
Did you at least return the poor lobster?
The Dr Tim's should have been deposited straight into your filter & then the bacteria should have been left to settle in for 24-48 hours.

[thrwnsprkz]

no, they wouldn't take them back to hold for me.
hard to say but the one doesn't seem to be making any progression towards recovery.
It this point I'm looking for a 30 gal to setup for the one.

my gf has a 20 gal community tank that the lobsters living in happily atm, the divider was just an overcomplicated plan to get the puffers tiny tank cycled to where they could "live" temporarily, I just found my old 7 gal and pulled it out instead so they could be treated for IP's

thanks everyone

[FADE2BLACK_1973]

I will tell you that the AC HOB filter are my favs for any tank. Mainly because their filter space that can hold far more bio media then Marine Land's filters,imo.

[Pufferpunk]

AC filters here, all the way!

[borgey]

I had no idea the ammonia & nitrites could kill these guys.

Isn't this true with ALL fish tho? I mean yes Puffers more so then others but NO amount of Ammonia or Nitrite is good and can be harmful. How are the little guys doing now by the way? I would focus on getting them into a 55 gallon ASAP. Changing the water daily should not effect the cycle of the tank either by the way. Not much bacteria live in the water column.

[thrwnsprkz]

Heyo,

I have them in a quarantine tank atm, been looking around for an aquarium.
sadly just a 30... one died yesterday, he wasnt recovering from the previous shock. passed over night im sorry to report. the other is making a full recovery, still a slight stress mark between the white and green but Im also treating him with IP meds so that could be part of it? day 4 of the meds today. he ate a feast sunday but I couldn't get him to eat yesterday or today.

been setting up a fish-less cycle in the 10 regardless in the meantime.
day: PH / Ammonia / Nitrite / Nitrate
Sunday: 7.5 / 4 / - - / - -
Monday: 7.6 / 2 / - - / - -
Tues: 7.6 / .25-.5 / .25 / - - Added 2ml of ammonia after testing


As far as 30 gal aquariums go, I read a smaller bowfront isn't recommended for a puffer. what is exactly ideal for one of these fish, i understand they get quite plump and need there swimming room. There's a rectangular aquarium, but also a square aquarium that Ive had my eye on. the rectangular one looks narrow in depth for some reason, to the point I kinda wonder if it would be restrictive. would a square be too short length wise?

thanks everyone

[Pufferpunk]

Longer footprint is better.

[thrwnsprkz]

Cool dealio, appreciate the help ya'll
"cheep-cheep" is on day 10 of 10 in the medication with "praz-tastic", the smaller temp aquarium is now nearly fully cycled (just waiting to finish removing the last bit of nitrate). & I found a killer deal on a brand new marineland 28bow which should last me until Im out of school.

hes looking much better, filled back out after this week and is eating live blackworms, ghost shrimp & pest snails on the reg. was able to get him to eat a few worms with the meds praziquil on it yesterday just to be safe incase the water treatments wernt working (never saw any IP's purged).

but what do these purging IPs look like? after his hearty meal yesterday he discarded a bunch of yellow balls all strung together nearly 2" long. Im hoping those were the final IPs dying off.
I fed him a lil more + his last WC today.

hopefully moving him into the tank soon. temporary 10gal untill I can get the 28 setup/cycled.

cycled tank record looks like this, would I still have to add ammonia today if all Il trying to do is get the nitrate out? and how fast can I make WCs to remove the last bit of nitrate?

Sidenote: I think the NitrAte results up until the 14th were compromised, I don't think the directions were followed quite right.

[thrwnsprkz]

well I tried to search what IP poo looks like, apparently the "gold string of pearls" is still an indication (???) so tho hes in the larger aquarium now Im going to continue soaking his food in medication still.
I need to find some sort of measuring device to weigh 23mg/lb of weight for Praziquantel.

Im not home atm but I was told the readings for the tank came back zeros,
edit: the pH was 7.2 today not 6.8, still down from 7.6 but not as much.